Hardening lead and how it works

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Common in bullet casters vocabulary are words such as hardening, hardcast etc. Not to likely as deeply set as these terms are that it will change but to understand how a lead (Pb) antimony (Sb) alloy is "hardened" the correct terms must be used. What we are doing by heat treating or quenching from the mold is changing the grain boundaries within the alloy, one way to greatly enhance this effect is to use a "grain refiner". With a grain refiner present in a Pb/Sb alloy the alloy is "strengthened" well beyond the binary alloy. Many things can be used in a Pb/Sb alloy as a grain refiner but since most bullet casting is done with scrap alloys and the most commonly used grain refiner in the metals industry is arsenic (As) it's incorrectly thought that As must be present to strengthen the alloy. Many things can be used as a grain refiner in a Pb/Sb alloy. Sulphur, copper, arsenic are examples.

The smaller the grain boundaries in a Pb/Sb alloy the stronger the alloy will be. When you pour a Pb/Sb alloy into your mold and it begins to freeze (solidify) the grain boundaries are at their smallest and over time the grain boundaries expand. This should sound familiar to anyone using a high Sb alloy and the final bullet size is larger than a low Sb alloy from the same mold. What quenching from the mold or oven heat treating does is suddenly freeze the grain boundaries in place resulting in a stronger alloy. Grain refiners have a great effect on this process, a Pb/Sb alloy with as little as 0.25% As can be strengthened considerably more than a Pb/Sb alloy alone. Some have experimented with adding copper to their casting alloys resulting in much stronger bullets but it's doubtful that the percentage of copper increases strength (hardness) much even though copper is harder than lead but copper is a grain refiner.

The smaller the grain boundaries the more difficult it is for the boundaries to "slip" or move thus a stronger bullet. With the use of a grain refiner and quenching in cool water our bullets are made stronger. Given enough time the effect is reversed as the grain boundaries very slowly grow, commonly known among bullet casters as age softening. Ever notice that your properly sized and stored bullets 5 years later have grown by .001" or so and are somewhat softer? This process is slow, slower than I expect many think it is. I discovered a couple of boxes of bullets that I had oven heat treated to 30 BHN, the boxes were all labeled with alloy, date, BHN, heat treat temp etc. They were 10 years old and I thought they would be putty now but . . . They were still 26 BHN.
 
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358156hp

Guest
Which leads me to a question for you Rick. I have a quantity of (allegedly) virgin linotype that is decades old. I haven't tested it, but because of its age, I expect that it has lost some hardness over the years. Does melting and processing (for lack of a better term) return alloys to their original hardness, in effect "recharging" the alloy? I rarely use linotype anymore. I could break down the "pigs" I have, but thought this might be a good opportunity to allow others in on an important topic. My primary issue is that I did not test my lino for hardness when I got it, so I have no baseline to work with beyond the nominal hardness numbers for lino (bhn22). I do understand that the size of my resulting test samples will also directly impact sample hardness.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Age softening refers to heat treated/quenched Pb/Sb alloys. In other words they have been strengthened (hardened) beyond the basic alloy air cooled or it's natural state. Quenched Pb/Sb can be annealed or reduced in strength either completely or in stages depending on the annealing temp. No alloy can be made softer than it's components air cooled or again, it's natural state. Your lino sitting there hasn't done much more than sit there unless it was quenched when cast. Whether your alloy was quenched or not once you melt it all trace of strengthening is gone and if allowed to air cool to it's natural state it will be what the alloy is.
 
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358156hp

Guest
I figured I was missing a point somewhere. It makes perfect sense.

Thanks!
 

Ian

Notorious member
I learned a bunch from reading about precipitation hardening, Hall-Petch relationships, and slip dislocations. Lots more to even the simple Pb/Sb/Sn alloy than the bullet casting manuals outline. Add in grain refiners or copper and it's a whole new dimension.

HP, when the metal is recast, the grain structure re-forms and the evolution process begins anew.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Lol, what to do when brain hurts from the book you chose? Like information overload.

I find the difference between water drop and heat treat interesting. Been trying to look into it more.

It makes me think twice about utilizing those methods unless the ammo will be used in a specific time frame. What those time frames should be based on what you've done is a call for closer study.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Not all that complicated. The percentage of Sb in your alloy will determine the time/age curve. A lower percentage of Sb will take longer to harden than a higher Sb alloy. Give them a week. Once hardened if you shoot them within the next several years your good to go.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Is Water dropping while casting as good as Heat treating alloy? I have heard that the oven heat treating is more accurate / consistent
however there are an awful lot of folks water dropping and shooting accurately with those boolits.
I have never had the need to use any hardening processes in the past because most of my rifles are shot with light or slow loads so my standard alloy (50 % WW / 50% pure +2% add'l tin) shot fine air cooled.
But now shooting my .243, water dropped boolits are showing better groupings ( not sure why because I'm not getting leading with either air cooled or water dropped) I thought it may be the smaller caliber however my .223 bolt rifle shoots air-cooled very well….I guess the .243 is a different animal
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Define accurate shooting? For some that's 4 inches with a revolver at 15 yards. For others it's MOA with a revolver at a hundred yards.

Oven heat treating is more accurate because what determines the final BHN of a given alloy is the temp when quenched. With oven heat treating all bullets in the batch are the same temp & the water is the same temp. When quenching from the mold both the pot temp varies and mold temp varies with an inconsistent rhythm and varying pot temp. When I was doing long range revolver BHN testing one of the things that really stuck out was that all bullets within a group are the same BHN, varying BHN within a group had more effect on groups than using the "right" BHN.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
well If I had to say anything…... MOA with my rifle at 100 yds is dandy.
So I would guess water dropping should not be used trying for this type of accuracy ; would that be correct?
I just finally got a mould for my .243 so that will be the boolits I would like to harden.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
One of my purchases in the very near future should probably be a hardness tester. Although I shoot bullets that I've cast during the past year or two, I am also still loading and shooting bullets that I cast over 40 years ago and am still drawing from reserves that my father cast in the 1950s. Dad was prone to alloying too hard, in my opinion. His Lyman 454190s for a first gen artillery model Colt SAA was straight COWW. To the best of my knowledge, he did not water drop or heat treat. So, those I believe have age hardened some.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Rick on the age hardening.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Jim, it all depends on how precise you want to be. Will it make a difference? Best answer is possibly. How accurate is the rifle? How good is the load? How accurate is the shooter? How consistent is your casting? Lot's of things we can get wrapped around the axle about but to answer your original question, yes oven heat treating is more consistent.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Oven heat treating is also adjustable, water dropping is not.
When you water drop the bullet is the heat it is. When you oven heat treat you control the temp of the bullet.
Since temp differential between heat treat temp and quench temp are the key determining factors of final hardness for a given alloy oven heat treating is far more useful.

I might water drop and get 24 BHn. I can oven heat treat and get a range from 16 to 26 based on oven temp. This lets me pick the hardness that gives best results.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Brad you wrote: "I can oven heat treat and get a range from 16 to 26 based on oven temp. This lets me pick the hardness that gives best results."

Can you elaborate on this? I have heard horror stories of slumped over boolits and always heard that the 450 deg for 1 hour was the magic temperature ( it it was close to slumping). Are you saying you can heat treat at a lower temperature;
or is it still 450 deg for less or more time ? 16 to 20 range would suit me fine
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Rick,
Thanks, A lot of good info there. I believe I actually have a downloaded PDF of that article in my e-library ( but since I never had the need to heat treat before it had gone unread)
Since that chart is based on COWW alloy from reading…... my alloy (50 % WW / 50% pure +2% add'l tin) would take longer to harden after the quench since it would have less antimony.
"Conventional wisdom has it that the industry has been reducing the antimony content of wheel weights and my own experiments in heat treating seem to confirm this. The result hasn't "yet" been softer heat treated bullets but rather bullets that took considerably longer to age harden after heat treating."
A quick calculation puts my alloy at approx. 1.47 % Antimony 2.21% tin & 0.12% arsenic Sound right?
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
FWIW, While I was still working I had WW's tested from pre-1996 @ 4.2% antimony, 1.2% tin and 0.5% arsenic; 1998 @ 3.2% antimony, .09% tin and 0.6% arsenic.
In 2002 I got a batch of new made WW's from a Tacoma, WA, foundry made from scrap from all over the PNW. Analysis was 3.5% antimony, 0.7% tin, 0.7% arsenic, 0.5% zinc, 0.4% cadmium and 0.4% copper. Their position was that wheel weights coming into the US from Japan and Korea where so contaminated with miscellaneous scrap that they had no way to economically remove metals that were no good for bullet casters. Wheel weights are cast from high pressure automatic molders, so if it melts they can use it. Since there are no smelters that make lead from ore in the US anymore, everything is recycled and it is expensive to get even 99% lead from our poor quality scrap.
 

Texas Hillbilly

Active Member
How hard do we need our bullets to be??wasn't it Richard Lee who said to match bullet hardness to pressure of the load? Hummm maybe casting is a Science!!o_Oholly cow I've got a headache:oops::eek:
 
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