Plain Base Cast bullets ( Rifle) observation!

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Here' some comments on Pope's muzzle loading system. Parts are actual Pope statements............

"Will Hayes was another of the old-timers. The Pope muzzle-loading system might never have been developed if I hadn't met him at the Newark Schuetzenfest in 1888. He was the real inventor of the 'Pope' muzzle-breech loading system. "Hays wanted a gun to load greased bullets from the muzzle, for accuracy, and yet use metal cases for convenience of loading. The rifle was made for him about 1884 by George Schalk.

Schalk didn't want to make such a crazy gun, wouldn't put his name on it, though after he saw it shoot he put it on in a hurry. It was a 16-pound ..33 caliber on a Ballard action, using .32-40 cases and a grooved 162-grain bullet with no patch. Hayes offered to lend it to me. Of course, I didn't accept, but I did make one like it.

"I was still making barrels for myself alone. That first muzzle-breech loader I made was in 25 caliber, after seeing the results Hayes got with his Schalk rifle. Then I made two or three lighter rifles like it. The cases were made from .32 Extra Longs, and held 30 grains of powder with a 120-grain bullet.

"Not long after that I bought a heavy .32-40 Winchester Single-Shot and rebored it for a .33 muzzle-loader. With it I began to win. So far that rifle has been fired about 125,000 times, and all with the old mercuric chlorate primers. They're supposed to raise hell with a gun, but it's perfect yet, after that use.

"It was at this time that I would save money to come to the New York matches from Hartford. Every time I'd go broke, have to borrow money for entry fees, then go home and borrow some more to pay my New York debts - that is, unless I'd been lucky and taken enough prize money to repay them, and then I'd be home again saving for the next trip."

By this time the Pope muzzle-loading system was developed in its final form. Harry had modified the Schalk method of rifling as used in the original Hayes rifle: his own consisted of eight wide grooves on a radius about three times that of the bore, gain twist, with the corners of the grooves rounded instead of square, which tended to make cleaning easier. The grooves were cut just deeply enough to clear the bore in the center and give a depth at the corners of about .004 inch, half that of Schalk's rifling. The lands were very narrow, about 1/8th to 1/10th the width of the grooves. The bore was given a slight, gradual taper from breech to muzzle.

To be capable of fine accuracy, Pope found that a bullet must be delivered from the muzzle with a perfectly square base. Breech-loading will not do this as fins of lead invariably are swedged out of the base of the bullet when it enters the construction of the bore nose first. To overcome this prime cause of inaccuracy the Pope bullet was inserted at the muzzle, the case with powder being afterward placed in the chamber in the ordinary way. By the simple act of pushing the bullet down the bore base first the dirt of the proceeding shot was scraped down the bore ahead of it, leaving a uniformly clean channel for the bullet when fired. As well, the base of the bullet remained square and concentric.

Each bullet had to be entered through a tapered false muzzle that gently swedged it into the bore without deforming it. The entire Pope system of muzzle-loading was developed to affect the delivery of a perfect bullet with its centers of weight and form true and undisturbed. By obtaining a phenomenal uniformity of delivery. Pope was able to secure the same uniformity in his results, reducing the error at the target to a minimum.

"Now look here. You say my muzzle-loaders took longer to load. Actually that isn't so. The total loading time was the same as for an ordinary breech-loader. Just to show you: I was alone at the range one day, didn't have to hurry, and noticed the time I took. In two hours and ten minutes I had fired 100 shots, which meant re- and decapping the shell, throwing a charge, lubricating, starting and seating each bullet as well as the normal procedure of firing offhand. You couldn't load 100 cartridges with a modern loading tool and fire them carefully in much less time.

The superb accuracy of these rifles, properly handled, is unchallenged. Pope guaranteed that any of his muzzle loading rifles, with the exception of the 25 caliber, would shoot into 2 inches at 200 yards, loaded from the muzzle. Groups made by Pope, the late C. W. Rowland, dean of the old-time rest shooters, Donaldson, Roberts and others, that show ten shots at 100 yards and even 200 yards going into one ragged hole, have often been published. Pope himself has one 200 yard target that shows 10 shots grouping within 5/8 of an inch, center to center! Though temperamental, the Pope muzzle-breach loading Schuetzen rifle, under proper conditions and in the hands of a rifleman willing to study and master the methods that must be used to get results, will yet outshoot up to 200 yards any other type of rifle in existence."


What book is that from?
 

Dale53

Active Member
fiver;
No, that target by Borton was shot off a bench as was the others I was talking about. Shooting under an inch ten shot group at 200 yards off a bench with home cast plain base bullets in a single shot rifle is STILL a heck of an accomplishment, tho'.

FWIW
Dale
 

gman

Well-Known Member
Off a bench, offhand, anyway you slice it that’s impressive shooting. Skill behind the trigger and crafting the ammo.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Bret,

That 'clip' was from an "American Rifleman" article in the June 1941 issue.

Please tell me that group you posted wasn't done offhand!!!!!!!!

Pete


And it just so happens I have the June 1941 issue of the Rifleman. Thanks!
 

Elric

Well-Known Member
Here' some comments on Pope's muzzle loading system. Parts are actual Pope statements............
The bore was given a slight, gradual taper from breech to muzzle... Breech-loading will not do this as fins of lead invariably are swedged out of the base of the bullet when it enters the construction of the bore nose first. To overcome this prime cause of inaccuracy the Pope bullet was inserted at the muzzle, the case with powder being afterward placed in the chamber in the ordinary way. By the simple act of pushing the bullet down the bore base first the dirt of the proceeding shot was scraped down the bore ahead of it, leaving a uniformly clean channel for the bullet when fired. As well, the base of the bullet remained square and concentric.

After rooting about in the turn of the century stuff, I noticed (with my Electric Eye) this seeming incongruity... So, we have a tapered bore, wider at the breech, narrower at the muzzle. We have a lead bullet being oh-so-carefully loaded from the muzzle. Yes, the lead displaced by the lands flows forward as the bullet is pushed down the barrel.

So what about the bore? I DIMMly remember the taper is oh-so-slight... But aren't we swaging the bullet to the bore dimensions when loading it from the muzzle? Another vague factoid is that the alloy was 16-1??? Can't remember right now... So let's assume pure lead, or a very soft alloy. It might bump up real quick to stop leading or gas cutting. Think of the .43 Spanish, .439 sized in a .445 or so bore...

I feel that this conjecture is a bit off, though, because what little exists does NOT mention leading problems or gas cutting.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I don't think they went as hard as 16-1 most of the stuff I have seen from back then was they were working with as soft as they could get away with.
I remember Mann writing about trying harder alloys in his pope barrel and going back to a dead soft alloy that was bumped up when fired.
the way he described his bullet had me thinking of a silhouette type shape of pure or near pure lead that was cast to bore diameter then had a base plug type groove diameter and was breech seated before the case was placed behind it.

16-1 wasn't used much until the faster express type rounds become popular.
I'm pretty sure this is where Elmer got his cue to use the 16-1 for the 44 mag.

anyway even with a slight taper to the bore, pushing in from the muzzle would allow everything to glide in place straight.
once it was there the powder charge slugging the bullet up and the buffer of the plug holding the powder in place would work together to seal the gas behind it.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
I DIMMly remember the taper is oh-so-slight...
I agree with the oh-so-slight. It was thought that even a couple tenths (tenth of one thousandth) helped accuracy. My father agreed on a light taper towards the muzzle (and he shot with a couple guys that knew Pope in the 30's) I agree in a more modern sense too as I have a .22 Hornet Ruger #3 that tapers opposite! In other words it is tighter back at the throat and gets looser towards the muzzle...... .0005" looser! It shoots jacketed OK but is fussy; cast has been non-productive. If I knew a small caliber rebore person I could trust it would be a .25-20 by now!

I think the bullets used were softer than 1 in 16 as well. And good ol' black powder would bump them to fit. History tells us it worked!

Pope use a slight gain twist as well I believe and he also believed in a left-hand twist (as I do as well).

Pete
 

Ian

Notorious member
Something else to remember is the soft alloys aren't very springy, so when the pressure drops off the bullets don't put much pressure on the barrel walls to maintain obturation. A gentle taper toward the muzzle end would certainly help the seal with the black powder/soft alloy combination.
 

M3845708Bama

Active Member
I shoot a lot of plain base bullets in my rifles ( with light loads) We all know the drill ...."the base has to be pristine when cast". Today we had a bit of a thaw in the berm at our shooting range so I decide to pick up some of my lead I deposited in it over the deep freeze of the past month.
Since I have been shooting exclusively my 1916 Spanish mauser ( with PC coated bullets); I found it easy to pick up a handful of those colored fired casts. I was instanly struck by the fact that the nice rifling grooves in the bullet caused the alloy to extend beyond the base of the bullet! Yes there were extrusions beyond the base of the bullets! Is this normal or a sign of trouble?
Jim
JW, I shoot bore riders in 308w and 6x45 and have the same results. I size the bore rider portion so that it just slides down the muzzle barrel. I believe that this helps to keep the boolit in axial alignment with bore. If size the bore rider portion back, actually into grease groves leaving a driving band portion just slightly over one bore diameter in length. As result the boolit bases do not extend pass. The neck. In the 6x45 it adds powder capacity and pressures more uniform. In working up loads I have found that as velocity increases the “0bstruation” increases to the point that expansion of the bore rider portion completely fills bore accuracy Thames a sudden jump. In the case of the 308, groups drop to half their former size. The rifling is crisp and clean with no indication of sliding. I only shoot powder coated cast boolit now. It was interesting to read you had seen the rifling ingagement also.
 

Kevin Stenberg

Well-Known Member
I know it wouldn't help a bullet that wasn't fildout fully on the base. But will base first sizing fix miner flashing on bullet basses?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
it will fold it over and try to iron it on the side of the bullet.
I'd say that is as bad as having an imperfection cast in.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
noe sells a little champher tool that will nip them off they are for gas check shanks, but will work on the plain base bullets too.