Too much HP pin ! !

[Ben]

As we get older , we learn.
Sometimes painfully, but we do learn.

I started having different brands of rifle moulds Hp'd about 20 years ago.
I felt that more ( hp pin length ) was better. As time went on and actual field testing on actual game animals was conducted, I found out........NOT SO !

A few years ago, I used a .308 Win. with 26.0 grs. of IMR 4895
and the Lyman 31141 HP to shoot this doe. I learned a lot about
HP cast rifle bullet performance from this one event !

Here is a photo of the 31141 mould and the length of the HP
pin prior to me shortening the pin. This length turned out to
be far too explosive on game animals.

The doe had 11 exit holes . ( VERY dead deer, but not what I was looking for in cast bullet performance.)

I wanted some expansion of the nose of the bullet, but I also wanted penetration with a good exit hole.

Notice this 1st photo and see how large the ENTRANCE hole is.
The bullet was expanding violently on the outside skin and ribs of the animal :





Regrettably the bullet turned out to be a flying bomb.

Several years ( and deer ) later, I've realized that IF you choose to hunt deer with cast HP bullets in the 1,800 fps velocity range, a deep HP cavity isn't your friend.

I realize that different alloys cause HP cast bullets to expand ( and penetrate ) differently.

I now use exclusively air cooled WW's for 90% of my revolver and rifle bullet casting. As a consequence, I've learned that a shallow HP cavity in the end of the nose of a .30 cal. cast rifle bullet at 1,800 fps can make a lot of difference in how the bullet behaves upon impact with a deer.

This photo below is where I am now. The HP pin may look too small and too shallow, but it isn't. At any reasonable distance, this HP cast bullet is deadly effective on white tailed deer.

Ben








By the way, this one is plenty accurate !
The group below was fired from my Ruger # 1, 308 Win. with the same load data that I used to kill the deer above. The " high round " in the group below ( the one outside the orange paster ) is me not the rifle.

 

[Rick]

I couldn't agree more Ben right down to the choice of alloy. The idea is to expand the nose, not blow it off like a hand grenade. I use clip-on WW +2% Sn air cooled for all rifle shooting into the 1900+ fps range, HP or not. I've also had Erik make me new pins much shorter and thinner than the Lyman pins they replaced. An alloy too brittle or too hard even with a proper pin will blow off the nose at 1800 to 1900 fps.

 

[Ben]

No truer words have been spoken Rick !

The arrangement that I have now is very effective.

It is interesting that what you read and what you find out in actual real life experiences often times have little ( if anything ) to do with each other.

Many said the long deep hp pin was what I needed years ago, I think that some on the internet that offer advice are better at being a " keyboard cowboy " than offering good advice on the design and performance of a cast .30 cal. rifle hunting bullet at 1,800 - 1,900 fps.

Ben

 

[35 shooter]

Ben, have you or anyone here tried the cup point style like NOE makes? I,ve never used a hollowpoint
for hunting,but did get a rg mold from Al on my last order.
The hollow point pin that came with it is pretty deep, but the cup point is shallow and almost full width of the nose.

I've got the fp version going about 2200 fps, but don't know how the cup point would hold up on deer at those speeds? I need to do some expansion tests with it, but haven't so far.

 

[Ben]

I own some molds that use the " cup point " design.
I'd think they would work well, however I've never used
one on a game animal yet ? ?

The " Flat " is also deadly effective on a game animal.

Ben

 

[Rick]

I would think that at the 2200 fps that 35 shooter mentioned even the cup point may be too much cavity.

Another tip I learned from Glen Fryxell is to use a rounded HP pin. A square cut pin that leaves a square bottom of the cavity will aid in breaking the nose off. A thinner "tapered" pin with a rounded tip will aid in the nose curling back into a mushroom. A rifle cast HP with too much velocity is pretty much going to blow off the nose regardless of alloy.

 

[Ben]

Rick what is your opinion of the " Flat " above ?

Ben

 

[Rick]

Would depend on velocity, as velocity increases the need for a HP decreases and the chances of blowing off the nose increases. Blowing off the nose on contact leaves much less bullet mass (weight/momentum) to penetrate through. I like to have lot's of blood on both sides of Bambi. If I were to handicap myself by deer hunting with a rifle I would choose that flat point bullet over a HP if the velocity were much over about 1800 fps.

 

[Ben]

My view also.

Ben

 

[45 2.1]

Interesting subject...... though people's views often change with the experience level they achieve. What you're doing should work fine within the range you've stated, but might not be the last word on the subject either.

 

[KHornet]

There are different schools of thought on HP, depth, dia of the pin etc. I have long been a believer that all things being equal, the hollow point bullet is a boon to accuracy for target work with cast bullets, as HP'ing puts more weight to the rear of the projectile. Think I have based this belief on the fact that the vast majority of high velocity match bullets manufactured are hollow pointed. I tend to shoot harder cast blts than most I believe, and most of my rifle blts are low side 18 BH, and on up to 24 BH+. Most of my HP's are in 30 and 22's, and I shoot the lions share of them on paper. The only deer I killed with a HP was with my #1 Ruger, 375H&H, 265 gr. water dropped GC HP, BH 22+, 100 plus (lazered) broad side high lung shot. 37 cal in, and maybe 45-50 cal out, and it was a bang flop. Obviously very little if any expansion. This bullet is very accurate in my rifle on paper at 100 yds, and driven at about 1800 fps with the hard HP's. So that will remain my deer load with that rifle. I am most impressed with Ben's pic of the nose break up on the doe, and I hope I am smart enough to appreciate what this pic shows. I also have the 041HP, with the deep pin, but will now have the pin cut down appreciably if I am going to use it on deer. The cup point is also of interest. Am not so sure that for hunting meat animals there is little or no need for HP's if the nose of the bullet is as big and as flat as will chamber and shoot accurately. Think this is particularly true the larger the dia of the bullet. Shot a 300 lb Russian Bore with 45-70, flat nose 420gr Ohas, cast about 18 BH, at about 1500, at about 70 yds. 45 Cal in, about 50 cal exit, bang flop. No need for expansion. I shoot pdogs with hornet and K-hornet out to 125-150 yds with little HP, 40 grainers cast of water dropped Lino or Mono. Very deadly, and they frag like a commercial frangible (They are however a real pain in the tush to cast.). SO, I very much appreciate Ben's posting, as that pic on exit shrapnel is/was a big eye opener. Like the old Pa. Dutch saying, "Ve gott to soon old, and too late smart"! A much appreciated post Ben!

 

[Ben]

KHornet,

Thanks - I'm glad that you enjoyed the post.

Yes, you might want to shorted that hp pin if you plan
on hunting with the 31141 .

Based on my experiences, at 1,800 fps it doesn't take
a very deep hp pin to make the bullet expand upon impact .

Ben

 

[Ian]

What pin design works best all depends on velocity and alloy. Lyman #2 alloy is very tough and malleable and can work well with deeper, smaller diameter HP cavities at 30-30 velocities. Too much antimony without enough tin makes the noses shatter.

 

[Glen]

I like the traditional length HP pins, but only if I'm working with velocities of about 1500 fps or less, where they work beautifully (and recall, back when these bullets were first introduced, the prevailing wisdom was that cast bullets would only shoot accurately at these modest speeds). For higher speeds (like 1800 fps) I completely agree with everything written above about shorter HP pins and cup points. I went through a similar evolution with a 358315 HP for my .35 Remingtons and eventually ended up with a cavity about 1/3 the length of the factory version. I have gotten excellent expansion with FN cast bullets cast to a BHN of about 12 on feral hogs at ~2000 fps.

 

[Ben]

Glen.

Your right, at cast rifle bullet velocities ( 1,800 - 2,000 fps ) , it doesn't take much of a HP opening in a flat nose bullet to wreak havoc on a game animal.

As we have both learned ( from the school of hard knocks ), more HP pin isn't always better.

Ben

 

[Charles Graff]

Very good information here for a guy that knows very little about hollows points.

 

[minmax]

Yes that's for the topic, as I just received my first HE mold a few days ago. Even though it is for a pistol.

 

[quicksylver]

OK Now that I have read several threads on the improved accuracy with HP bullets my interest has peaked.

My 1903 and 03a3 are asking that I give them a try.

I have all the 30 cal. molds that have BEN mentioned.

Any really stand out in performance on 100 yd targets?

My 1093 is a 4 groove and the 03a3 a 2 groove.

 

[Ben]

quicksylver,

My friend Bryan has shot the SAECO # 301 well in the past in his Winchester , Model 70, 30-06 Springfield. It has been my experience that the #301 is a real nail driver in 2 groove barrels also.

A few weeks ago, he fired two rounds out of the aiming square but they were touching. We corrected the scope and then he fired 3 more rounds. The range was 106 yards.

Needless to say, he is a happy camper.
By the way, ....I've seen him shoot this combination previously with great accuracy. I don't think this is a " fluke ".

Ben

 

[Grump]

Ben, my Dad was given a large handful of those bullets at a match decades ago, and I shot the last of them in an NM Garand and a 2-groove Springfield about half my lifetime ago.

Very accurate, and that cone point cut holes like a wadcutter even at lower velocities.

Sadly, I never pursued getting a mould, instead wasting some time and more than a hundred shots of testing on the "Squib" bullet that's too pointy to be pushed past about 1500 fps. Gave up on my velocity/cycle the gas gun goals for that bullet after I found the old American Rifleman article which included a report of that problem.

A two-cavity of that would be really nice. Do they still make it?