.357 SIG vs .38 Super

Just curious. What advantage does the .357 SIG have over the .38 Super?

Not much. Ballistics are pretty comparable, the Super uses a semi-rimmed case that has lost most of its popularity over the many, many decades (1929), and the Super can be a lot more finicky about feeding. I can't claim ammo availability for either is any better than the other right now, but I do feel that the SIG has a definite edge in reliable feeding. The Super was designed to function in an 8 round 1911, and while it's a cool caliber to have, I think the SIG being designed for high capacity 9mm class pistols is a definite advantage. There aren't a lot of hi-cap Supers that have caught my notice, mostly competition "race" guns. Both use a weird case, the Supers case is unique, and the SIGs case is a necked down and shortened 10mm.

9mm has become so highly developed that it has some real advantages over both calibers. Velocity and energy are not among those advantages, but there are some really trick bullets for 9mm that simply don't appear to work well at 38 Super (+P), and 357 SIG top end velocities.

Not much to add as always 358156 has it covered.

Ballistically none But does feed better. (As mentioneded)

I like & shoot them both. The Super is more classic to me the sig is a lil power house in a smaller package.

CW

The irony of the two caliber is that I've never really wanted a 38 Super 1911, but I really do want one in 357 SIG. Too bad the SIG 1911 "Nightmare" in 357 was so short lived.

Damn Covid.

No Bob, just no. A 1911 in 38 super is a classic. A 357 Sig belongs in A Glock.

A 38 super 1911 would be a fine gun to own.

My late BIL owned a Colt 1911 in .38 Super. It was factory stock, no after market barrel or trick parts, so it was not particularly accurate. But he tried everything from 100 gr bullets to 158 gr RN (358311) and got all of them to feed. The idea of a 158 gr bullet at .38++P velocities is appealing. Is there any info on using bullets heavier than 125gr in a .357 SIG?

For years, I longed to own a 38 super 1911. A few years ago, I bought a RIA. I like it and everything, but in hindsight, I kind of wished I bought a 9mm luger 1911, mostly because the cheap brass thingy.
I've never owned or loaded the 357sig, but wonder about reloading that necked case, isn't that more of a pain, than it's worth, for a auto-pistol cartridge?
that's my 2¢

KeithB said:

My late BIL owned a Colt 1911 in .38 Super. It was factory stock, no after market barrel or trick parts, so it was not particularly accurate. But he tried everything from 100 gr bullets to 158 gr RN (358311) and got all of them to feed. The idea of a 158 gr bullet at .38++P velocities is appealing. Is there any info on using bullets heavier than 125gr in a .357 SIG?

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KeithB,

I own a 1911 in .38 Super. The Lyman cast reloading handbook, which I received new for Christmas in 1984, listed data for the 358311 in that cartridge. I never had a 358311, but I have fired 358416, according to published data for the 358311, using the charge weights listed. I don't have the manual or the pistol with me here in Zambia, but I fired it just before I left the United States for the Mission here in Kabwe. Brought back a lot of memories, as Dad gave me the 1950s (?) vintage 1911 for making the honor roll in June 1985.

It's like a .45LC. Every Colt owner should have one.

KeithB,

My mistake on the last message. I thought you were asking about heavy-bullet loads for .38 Super. I do not own a SIG and misread what you were asking.

No problem, that was good info. Not trying to start a this vs that fight either really, or put down either cartridge or their fans. But I was looking over the basic ballistics of both cartridges and don't see a whole lot of difference.

The difference is in the platform not the cartridge. Brad had it right. It's kind of like the ,38-40 and the .40/10mm cartridges. Ballistics about the same, but the platform is different.

Hope to buy a Glock G19 at some point in the next six months if I can recover from my upcoming carpal/cubital tunnel surgeries enough to use it. That's all the cartridge I want to handle in that size gun. I noticed Glock does not have anything in .38 Super but they have lots of .357 Sig models. I note 358156's comments about the development of bullets for 9mm.

They're both great cartridges both for handloading and in factory offerings. I will give the edge to the SIG for feeding butter-smooth in a short-feed auto, higher capacity in a short (front to back) grip frame, and in more handgun platform options for the chambering. Accuracy, class, and much more powder/bullet versatility for the handloader are some advantages of the Super Auto. I think that given the choice between the two, a handloader would be wise to get one if each because they are so much the same, yet really so much different. My 1911 Super embarrasses many rifles.

Brad said:

No Bob, just no. A 1911 in 38 super is a classic. A 357 Sig belongs in A Glock.

A 38 super 1911 would be a fine gun to own.

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Ahem.... My 357 is a SIG P320. I also have a 40 S&W barrel for it. Truth be said, Glock makes more 357 SIG chambered guns than SIG does. We're not seeing new 357 SIG anything from SIG since the afore mentioned 1911s.

The 38Super has class. Near origional chambering for the 1911. In comparison, The 357Sig is a child. But I gotta tell ya it is no slouch in the accuracy department!! My 6" KKM Barrel I have in the G24 shoots about 2"@ 50 yards and under 4 @ 100.

I haven't shot the super past 50 where it is about 4". I HAVEN'T REALLY SEARCHED TOP accuracy loads from either.

I like both allot and for different reasons.

CW

KeithB said:

My late BIL owned a Colt 1911 in .38 Super. It was factory stock, no after market barrel or trick parts, so it was not particularly accurate. But he tried everything from 100 gr bullets to 158 gr RN (358311) and got all of them to feed. The idea of a 158 gr bullet at .38++P velocities is appealing. Is there any info on using bullets heavier than 125gr in a .357 SIG?

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Most of my 357 loads are heavier than 125 grain. I have a Lyman 356637 147 gr mould, a 135 gr Ranch Dog, and I've loaded a lot of 145-147 gr XTPs as well. Data for the 147s can be found in Hornadys manual, and in Lymans later manuals. I had to work up loads for the 135 gr RD, but it was just the usual load development, I think I started with middle of the road 147 gr data from Lyman and worked it out from there.

There are a number of factory loads that are sort of available at times- almost, and fired brass is usually plentiful on auction sites. This caliber favors 10mm class powders. My hot stuff is generally AA#7 & AA#9, but Blue Dot and 800X are crowd pleasers at twilight. One caution about Lymans 356637, my mould generally drops bullets at just over 150 gr, so if you try it, be prepared for that. I was going to try a couple of RCBS 145 gr 9mm moulds, but the people who are selling them want more money than I'm willing to pay. Elcos 38-155 shows promise, but I've barely done anything with it. 358156 works for me without a gascheck, but I need more experimentation to get velocities up a bit.

I have & like that 637 bullet. Mine is 150 with most my alloys too. My Super came with a Lyman 130g tc bullet in 4 cav. Dont remember number but its a good design. I also like the Saeco 383 140g swc. Its a long nosed bullet. I lucked into a small shop W/ 2 boxes of 147 hap bullets. Guy complained they was spl order & cust never showed up to pay for couple years ago. 65$ ea. I offered 100$ for both he accepted. So I been working on these for jacketed.

CW

There’s a lot of nostalgia surrounding the 38 Super. That doesn’t imply the 38 Super is bad, but the 38 Super does get a boost in reputation a little more that it may deserve. The 38 Super was essentially an early American 9mm +P+. Its semi-rimmed case (similar to the design of the 32 ACP) is not one of its endearing qualities but not an insurmountable problem. The 38 Super regained some attention back in the “race gun” era of the 1980’s/1990’s but I think that resurgence is over.

The 357 SIG is modern design of an older form. Its bottleneck design is akin to the old bottleneck shapes of the Tokarev, Mauser and Luger pistols cartridges from the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, although with some modern twists.

Both cartridges are essentially high performance 9mm platforms. The 38 Super gets a slight nod in magazine capacity due to its smaller diameter case. And the 357 SIG gets the nod in feeding reliability due to its rimless design and bottleneck configuration.

In today’s world 357 SIG brass is likely easier to acquire than 38 Super.

Compared to cartridges such as the 9mm Luger, 40 S&W and 45 ACP, neither the 38 Super or 357 SIG are “mainstream” in terms of factory ammo sales, however the 357 SIG is gaining popularity quickly and may enter that realm soon.

From a bullet casting & reloader’s viewpoint the 357 SIG has a very short neck that can pose some challenges. If you’re using cast bullets with traditional lube grooves, you may have to work around that short neck. If you powder coat, it may be less of an issue.

Personally, when the 9mm Luger is loaded to its full European pressure potential (which Americans tend to label as 9mm +P) we get pretty close to 38 Super performance. Given a suitable pistol chambered in 9mm Luger and the right loading, the 38 Super loses a lot of its appeal. I’m not saying they are identical, but the gap is smaller than perceived.

I don't recall EVER firing a 38 Super pistol. Having 40 S&W pistols here in some number, I am swap-barrels-away from having 357 SIGs on board.

My 9 x 19 carry ammo was getting long in the tooth (Speer Lawman 124 GD +P), and none was available in the known world (as usual). My dealer had some boutique ammo about 3 months ago (2nd Amendment Ammo Co.) that claimed 1300 FPS to its 124 grain Hornady JHP/XTP/whatever. I clocked some of it last week over my chronograph......1287 FPS mean from the P-226, sd 11. From the Glock 43, 1248 FPS mean, sd 12. I bought 300 rounds of the stuff. From barricade @ 25 yards, 10 shots went into just under 2" from the 226.

Awfully close to the 38 Super on paper, about 150 FPS behind the 357 SIG.

Brad said:

No Bob, just no. A 1911 in 38 super is a classic. A 357 Sig belongs in A Glock.

A 38 super 1911 would be a fine gun to own.

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Just started shooting a sti 1911,,in 38 super.what a sweatheart!!!!

Drat you guys and your 357 SIG texts. You tempt me greatly to head down that rabbit hole. For those in the know, do the 357 SIG seating dies apply a roll crimp, or are they taper-crimp only? I don't 'get' why the designers have the caliber headspacing on the case mouth when there is a beautiful shoulder right there to headspace on, like reasonable people hewed to 120 years ago. Tiny necks are a PITA without a roll crimp, IME.

In my pistol, headspace on the shoulder, in someone else's pistol they can do as they please.