1911 Magazine Feed Lips

[462]

I won't go into all the details -- they are in the What Did You Shoot Today thread if anyone is interested -- but my .45 ACP Randall 1911 has occasional feeding/chambering hiccups with the Lee 452-230 TC. The Lyman 452374 has always feed/chambered without fault.

Forum member Pistolero (Bill) once explained the advantages and disadvantages of each of the three designs of 1911 magazine feed lips. At the time I was shooting Lyman's 452374 ball clone and 452460 SWC (it hiccuped, too), so following his advise I ordered some Check-Mate hybrid magazines. (He also advised using a Lee taper crimp die and a crimp of .467" or .468" instead of the accepted .470", but that's another story.). The new magazines (and the new crimp dimension) improved the 452460 feeding/chambering, but not totally.

Fast forward to a few months ago: Thanks to an always very generous Ian, I have a Lee 452-230 TC mould. I like the bullet's design and have had a lot of fun developing accuracy loads with no less than five different powders. However, there is the occasional hiccup, and it happens with both the new Check-Mate hybrid magazines or the original Randalls. For several reasons, I'm pretty much convinced there is another cause to the problem, but that's not what this thread is about.

What it is about is, I would like someone more knowledgeable than I am to tell me what kind of feed lips the original Randall magazines have.

First off: Below is a self-explanatory and stolen Internet picture of the three different designs.


Here is a side view picture of my magazines. Check-Mate hybrid on the left, the others are the original Randalls. Notice that the Randalls have three different designs.

Here is a top view. Again, the Check-Mate is on the left. Notice, again, the differences between the Randalls.


So, can anyone tell me what designs the Randalls are? (I suspect the second and the fourth ones are tapered G. I. lips, but the cutout areas make me suspect otherwise.). The gun was made in the early part of '85, if that means anything.

Thank you.

Michael

 

[MW65]

To my eyes, it appears that 2 - 4 are some sort of variation of the wadcutter design. Here's what I see... straight and not tapered feed lips... the cutouts are different between them all, but from looking at the pic, it appears to not have the tapered feed lips like the gi or hybrid. Btw, never knew about this.... will look over my 1911 mags... thanks!

 

[CZ93X62]

I do not and will not pretend to be knowledgeable on the nuances of the 1911-series magazines--irrespective of the many nights I have stayed in Howard Johnson establishments over the years.

I'm no maven of 1911-series pistols, either--though I do like them a whole lot and have always had one or two of them sloshing around for the past 4 decades+.

One mantra I do subscribe to concerning John Browning's pet invention........the farther one departs from ANY design element of the original pistol and magazines, the more likely you are to encounter bobbles and stoppages. For this reason I favor GI-pattern magazines. They were optimized by JMB for use with the 230 grain FMJ/RN bullet. Here again, the further one departs from the OEM mags' design specs regarding feed lip forms or ammunition chacteristics--the more likely you are to induce hang-ups.

My current 1911 example is a Series 80 Gold Cup National Match variant that I like a whole lot. Using the GI mags it feeds Ball ammo perfectly (as you would expect) as well as my old shop's carry ammo the W-W Ranger SXT 230 grain JHP, which has now been relegated to Winchester White Box status (the 230 grain JHP selection). Same stuff, I still have boxes of both in my cabinet and both feed perfectly in the Gold Cup using GI-format mags. Life is good.

Bias alert--my serious autopistols are intended to go in harm's way. Reliability is foremost. The WWB JHPs do not stutter in my SIG P-220, the Colt GCNM, or the now-departed Glock 21. Though it was sold as a target arm, the GCNM has shown itself to be a capable reliable goblin-stopper. That is why we have 45 ACPs.......to stop goblins. But that's me.

Other folks have less onerous taskings for their pistols. For paper-punching, reliability can be excused a bit if the trade-off enables better feeding or finer accuracy. The wadcutter-form feed lips cater to those preferences, and the hybrids are increments on the continuum between my hard-assed JMB fixation and the needs of the paper-punchers. You pays yer money and takes yer chances.

I do hope you find my heresies entertaining and edifying. If not, continue scrolling on.

 

[462]

Nothing there to disagree with, Allen. I wasn't aware of the differences in feed lip designs till Bill gave us an education. I think at the time I ordered the Check-Mate hybrids the G. I. versions were not available. I need to start looking again.

I have one box remaining of the Winchester Ranger SXT 230-grainers. I know you have first hand knowledge of their effectiveness. Too, in Lucky Gunner's FBI penetration and expansion protocol testing they penetrated to 16" and expanded to an inch -- if my memory is correct -- beating all the makes and flavors. Sixteen inches of penetration of an inch diameter 230-grain bullet is something to bet on when it matters.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on the 1911 but I have more than just some passing knowledge of the platform.

I will say the longevity of the design has resulted in an extensive body of knowledge. There are few, if any, secrets left to discover about the 1911. I agree with Allen, the farther one wanders away from JMB’s design, the more likely one will create problems that didn’t exist prior to wandering.

One area where owners of modern pistols are a bit spoiled is magazines. You can pick up a new pistol from just about any quality manufacturer (SIG, Glock, S&W, CZ, etc. ) and it will come with magazines that function well with a variety of bullet types. The 1911 had a different history and that’s why we see different magazine designs for the 1911. For the first 30 or so years of the 1911’s existence, it was made to function with 230 gr. Ball ammo; and it did that very well. As people started playing with hollow points, wadcutters, and all sorts of end uses; things changed. The magazines (along with the pistols themselves) were modified to fit the need. So, we ended up with different magazine types for the 1911.

If you’re taking a pistol into harm’s way, it needs to be 100% reliable with the intended load – no exceptions. That means always the same proven cartridge and all identical proven magazines. No mixing and matching of magazines, even if they all seem to work. When you find a type that works with your pistol and load – buy how ever many you want and stick with those.

 

[bruce381]

what kind of "hiccup"? maybe just need to polish and tighten exstractor

 

[Brad]

I have some Checkmate hybrid lip mags. I get second to last round feed problems often enough to be frustrating. When I went to GI feed lips those issues went away- entirely.
Same load, same everything. Only change was the mag feed lips.

I am waiting for more GI feed lip Checkmate mags to be available and I will get another 6-8.

 

[462]

what kind of "hiccup"? maybe just need to polish and tighten exstractor

The hiccup is difficult to explain, but it is not a three point jam. The round has already hit the the feed ramp and the top of the barrel, and is pretty much horizontal as it has started to enter the chamber. The problem happens with both the original Randall and the Check-Mate hybrid lipped magazines.

I've re-tensioned the original extractor that has been partially relieved in the areas the 1911 pros recommend, and bought a new EGW extractor and relieved and tensioned it.

I keep forgetting to check which round is causing the hiccup, but am leaning toward the next to last, as Brad posted. In my case, because I load only five rounds, it would be the fourth round.

 

[Brad]

Do you have any GI feed lip mags to try?

 

[462]

Do you have any GI feed lip mags to try?

No, only the ones pictured in my original post.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The hiccup is difficult to explain, but it is not a three point jam. The round has already hit the the feed ramp and the top of the barrel, and is pretty much horizontal as it has started to enter the chamber. The problem happens with both the original Randall and the Check-Mate hybrid lipped magazines.

I've re-tensioned the original extractor that has been partially relieved in the areas the 1911 pros recommend, and bought a new EGW extractor and relieved and tensioned it.

I keep forgetting to check which round is causing the hiccup, but am leaning toward the next to last, as Brad posted. In my case, because I load only five rounds, it would be the fourth round.

That sounds like the bullet is being captured inside the top of the chamber but the cartridge base is still being held by the feed lips. There's probably just enough of an angle to jam the cartridge base against the feed lips and stop the cartridge from releasing from the mag.
The stoppage at the 4th round out of 5 in the magazine makes me think it is a timing issue involving when the feed rib contacts the base of the top cartridge in the magazine. That's why it doesn't appear during the cycling of the first 3 rounds. As rounds are expended from the magazine, there is less mass for the magazine spring to push upwards when the slide is open.
If the problem suddenly developed after working fine with everything equal (same load, same magazines, etc.) I would look at the recoil spring first and then the magazine springs second. I would also disassemble the mags and clean them, including the follower.
If, on the other hand, the problem is isolated to a particular magazine - there's your sign.

FWIW - I had lots of last round feeding issues with the convex rounded followers with some bullet styles. The flat followers or the concave style followers gave me far better reliability. Just personal experience and not Holy Writ.

 

[CZ93X62]

A lot of us are old enough to recall that until the 1980s an autopistol that reliably fed JHP or lead bullets was a notable exception to general tendencies. While self-loading pistols had began to be adopted in the early 20th Century by militaries around the world, most militaries subscribed to The Hague Accords. Those rules required non-expanding projectiles in small arms, so FMJ/RN was kosher in a war pistol. Ignored enthusiastically was the military perspective that "If you're down to your pistol, you are in a bad way" in most military scenarios.

Ahem. For civilian usage and American law enforcement the revolver held sway well into the 1970s. Predominantly those revolvers were in 38 Special. The 38 Special was a superb marking pellet for ne'er-do-wells putting distance between themselves and John Law. Its accuracy made it ideal for those old days of 'The Law Of Flight'--"You flee? I'll fire."

During the tumultuous 1960s The Law Of Flight started getting hard looks. By 1977 when I got hired into the gendarmerie the shooting of unarmed fleeing suspected felons was a major party foul at my shop. The net effect of these restrictions was to limit armed encounters involving the cops to armed bad folk at close quarters. In such circumstances, the 38 Special could disappoint; 70s-era 9mm ammo in this country wasn't a whole lot better, if we're being honest.

There was much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth. San Franciso PD made the EXCELLENT decision to adopt the S&W Model 58 revolver in 41 Magum using its lead bullet police load. Other agencies went another direction--the hi-capacity 9mm pistol; I guess if you can't opt for 'Decisive', you can always go 'Comprehensive' and weigh down the wound recipient with lots of heavy metal.

My shop had a new Sheriff in Jan. 1987. A former Marine NCO, he had great faith in the 45 ACP cartridge's ability to halt nonsense most ricky-tick. The cartridge was birthed in response to the dervish-like stuntwork of the Moro tribesmen encountered during our time in the Phillipines--45 Colt had leveled their karma properly, the 230 grain full-patch @ 850 FPS of same diameter was a close second place. By March of that year the policy was set--in June we began our 3-day schools to train the boys & girls in 45 ACP. Needless to say, I was a happy camper and taught at least a dozen of those courses to my folks and to others in various bureaus. Coin of the realm in those days was the Winchester Silvertip 185 grain hollowpoint. Those reliably balked in my Series 70 box-stock Colt Government Model, but ran like water in my S&W 645, 4516, and the SIG-Sauer P-220. In 1994 we shifted to the 230 grain SXT Ranger. (These run in my Series 80 Gold Cup and in my in-law's Series 70 GC). Ammo got better, too. 1994 also brought on the 147 grain sub-sonic 9mm loads, which suck canal water. Nicely enough, the 40 S&W was added at the same time with its 180 SXT JHP loading, so my 9mms got relegated to varmint hunting and paper punching venues. IME, that 40 S&W is every bit as good at fight-stopping as the 45 ACP. I carry both, and with serious ammo I'll drag along a 9mm from time to time. The cartridge is the thing, and the 40 S&W and 45 ACP will do to ride the river with.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Full agreement concerning the 147grain 9mm Luger “sucking canal water”. That load did more to damage the reputation of the 9mm Parabellum than any other loading. It was a miserable idea from the start and should have been confined to subsonic use in suppressed weapons. While it can be accurate (likely due to its long bearing surface and subsonic velocity) it has terrible terminal performance. Nuff said there.

With the right 115-125 grain bullet run at European level velocities, the 9mm Parabellum is a very effective round. The 45 ACP trades some velocity for some mass and is also a well proven fight stopper when set up properly.

Getting hollow points to cycle reliably in 1911 pistols prior to about the 1980’s often required some attention to detail. Polishing the lower portion of the chamber mouth, the right magazines, properly contoured extractors, and a particular bullet; were important parts of the system. Prior to the 1980’s, most government and commercial 1911 pistols were set up to run 230 gr FMJ. Those pistols certainly could be made to run with some HP ammo, and some loads ran better than others. But you really had to test your combination of magazines and cartridges.

The old Speer 200 grain HP, AKA “the flying ashtray” would run beautifully in one of my stock Commander length series 70 pistols but not in a another. And the 230 grain Winchester JHP (which had a well-rounded profile) would run in just about everything, AFTER the chamber mouth was polished. It all depended on the total system you were running. Today’s amazing selection of 1911 pistols are far more forgiving than the out of the box 1911’s of the past.

 

[Rick H]

The old Speer 200 grain HP, AKA “the flying ashtray”

I ran the 200gr. "flying ashcan" in my Series 70 1911, the feed ramp was massaged and polished and the trigger cleaned up to a crisp 5# before it ever fired a shot. That pistol always digested everything I put through it with Colt factory and GI magazines. After one of our guys shot himself in the ass with a 1911 at "half cock" the boss said no to single action autoloaders. I ran the same round through a Sig P220 without a bobble.

My shop later made the switch to 40 S&W Glocks mandatory. I have seen the results of the 40 S&W 180gr HP's application. As a result, I carry a 40S&W with 180gr Winchester or Speer Gold Dot HP's.

 

[CZ93X62]

Those Speer 200 grain "Flying Ashtrays" are an impressive-looking bullet. It has been a while since I've fired any of them. They did run in the 645 and 4516 reliably, but the Speer Lawman loads have always been a tough find where I live. The 9mm +P 124s I used since retirement all came from Sprague's in Yuma, and OF COURSE I stopped all out-of-state ammo purchases when The Politburo in River City issued its edicts about same.

I've found a local ammomaker that brews some decent factory loads in a number of carry calibers, and I have sampled its 124 grain +P offerings. In the P-226 the Hornady XTPs clock 1260-1275 FPS. Those will do nicely.