.38 Special revolvers shooting high

[Ian]

One thing that has always frustrated me, and why I don't shoot them much, is both of my S&W K-frame revolvers shoot high with 150-160 grain bullets. Usually about 3-4" high at 15 yards, 6" at 25. I can get that down to about 2" high at 15 if I crowd pressure limits, but if there's one thing I DON'T want to do, it's crowd pressure limits in these fine old guns. Accuracy tends to fall off near the top as well.

I spent most of this morning working on different loads with my powder-coated Lee TL358-158-R and while I was getting pretty decent groups, and in some instances excellent groups, the same shooting high thing kept rearing it's head. Also, both revolvers shot to the right at 90-95% loads, but windage tended to be right on with 80% loads. I ran Clays, Titegroup, and Universal from the 70% to 95% pressure range and never got the groups to come down acceptably.

So, what else to do but go to a lighter bullet? A few minutes ago I orderd a Lee 358-125F mould, so we'll see how that works out. I'll save this TL bullet for my .357 Magnums.

 

[waco]

Fixed sights? I have a '68 S&W K-38 and have no issues with it as far as hitting high. 158gr bullet and 3.2gr titegroup.

 

[Ian]

One is fixed, the other target adjustable. With the rear sight screwed all the way down it still hits 2" high at 15 yards from bags or standing. I aim 6 o-clock on a 1" bull and am getting 3-4" high of bull's center with the fixed sight one and also with the adjustable sighted one with rear sight elevation in the middle of the range. With max loads they both might shoot closer to POA, but I don't want max loads. I actually ran 3.3 of Titegroup as one of the loads and it shot a ragged hole, but was in the 3" high category.

 

[Brad]

Aim lower? That is pretty much what I do.

 

[Rick]

A taller front sight would solve your problem.

 

[gman]

K-38 are usually fine shooters. If you can try the 358477. That usually an accurate bullet plus it a little lighter.

 

[Ian]

Aim lower? That is pretty much what I do.

A taller front sight would solve your problem.

Geez, what would I do without you guys!

 

[Brad]

What would you do without us?

Keep shooting high.

 

[quicksylver]

Well since we are allowed to be wise a#÷s.it sounds like they are hitting where they should...2.75" @ 25yards would put the rounds in the ten ring on the 25 yd pistol target....also sounds to me that you have a grip issue..ills fitting for you or you need to change the position of your hand on the grip...can't seem to find the target that explains why a handgun shoots where it does..toough heel pressire, too much finger, anticipating recoil etc

 

[Ian]

I'm not ruling out a grip issue, the left/right POI shift is very consistent with load levels. I see this with a lot of my guns over .30 caliber, including rifles and carbines. I have a few of those targets, southpaw version, and they for sure tell you what you're doing wrong with a 1911. If they're supposed to be regulated to shoot that high, fine, but having to aim many inches low to hit a can at 25 yards takes all the fun out of it. I suppose that means I shoot nearly a center sight picture at 25 yards and beyond, since I generally aim at the bottom of an imaginary point that's about three to four minutes of angle when shooting open sights. On a can, I'd be about a half-inch below the center of top and bottom at 25 yards, and with these sights, I'd hit the middle of a can stacked on top of it. Is is me?

Brad, I'll be ok as long as they're not riding Shetlands.

 

[RicinYakima]

Ian, Continue if you want 50+ years of experience shooting S&W K-frames. You OK with that? One, they were made to shoot the 158 grain RN @850 f/s from 6" barrel load to point of aim at 50 yards. Two, they were made to shoot one handed with a hard up and down grip, not a wimpy Luger finger pointing grip. Your loads are fine, you just want different results than what we needed in the 1950's and '60's. Ric

 

[Ian]

Thanks for the input, Ric, I was born in the mid-'70s and have never even attended a revolver target competition. There's a lot in the shooting world I wish I could have done, but I had to drive two hours to the nearest IDPA competitions and almost that far for SASS. The nearest silhouette range was four hours away and closed 20 years ago. My pistol range at home maxes out at 25 yards, and oddly ALL of my 1911s and other fixed-sight automatics seem to hit right on the money at that range, as do most of my SAA-style revolvers, so naturally I expect a 4-6" .38 revolver to hit at about that range with standard ammunition. If it doesn't, I still require it, so I'll change bullet weight and have another go.

 

[Rick]

Two hours ain't nothing, there were times we drove two days each way to get to a match. Shot a match almost every weekend and 4-5 hours each way was common. At times we would fly out of state to shoot. All depends on how bad you want to shoot in a match.

You need to stretch out that 25 yard range past muzzle thumpin distance.

.

 

[RBHarter]

I stumbled across some dated information long enough ago that I couldn't begin to remember where it was from .
Often when a revolver shoots habitually high ,C&B mostly do in the repro Colts and Remingtons , it is a result of that platform being tuned to shoot with a sight picture not of the bead in the bottom of the U covering the bull but with a "pumpkin on a post" with the bull on top of the blade or bead. With that the high hits are now not high but very close to POH .

 

[RicinYakima]

Ian, yes you are a product of your life experiences. You were barely born when the "most gun fights are at less than 21 feet" manta came out. I well remember when the first Ruger 9mm autos came out and were touted as being sighted in for 25 yards, and bullet rise less than 1/4" at 21 feet. We spent a lot of time shooting over the hood of the cruisers (440 cid Dodge HP's) at the old target with a woman and a man behind her with a revolver to her head. You had to make the head shot at 50 yards. My favorite was laying in the street, prone, with my hands resting on the curb stone. And yes, you SHOULD be able to get your revolver to shot POA/POI at any distance you want. Shooting high requires a higher front sight, or lighter/faster bullet. For me, a 148 cast wadcutter with 4.5 grains of WW231 with the bullet only seated 1/2 way into the case and hard crimped, gets close to a 25 yard zero. Best wishes, Ric

 

[fiver]

I use a little less 231 and 10grs more bullet weight in 38 cases in my 357's than Ric.
anything else and things hit low for me, actually low and a little left.
I can get a 125gr rn to hit right there with the same amount of 231 too.
but those aren't the only molds I own [and not my standard 357 3/4 throttle load] so I have to choose where I want things sighted in, and with what load.
now that I think about it I might just need a couple more 35 cal pistols to make the bullet molds come out right.

 

[Intheshop]

If single action,which I can't understand other than hunting why anyone does?Aim lower,it isn't like you're in a hurry.

Dble action,grip a little higher,shoot faster.Work on grip strength.

According to the wife I have way too many guns.My two favorite S&W's are a 1980 4" 629 and a late model #14.But my heart N soul belongs to Colt(got a bunch).Switch brrl (4&6) Diamondback is a constant companion.

Preferring the Colt action because,well...because.You can work this out on your Smith but you might not want to put in the effort.Smiths respond very well to having their innards worked on,smoothing and speeding up the dbl action.Then you need to work on your technique.

Good luck,BW

 

[Ian]

It's interesting to learn from all of you WHY these revolvers are regulated the way that they are, I'm just getting to the age where I'm starting to become very inflexible. I've spent most of my life bending and moulding myself around things I cannot change, and I'm pretty much done with that. If I can't grab a handgun, poke it out there, line up the sights, squeeze one off and make a hole right on top of the front blade, it's of no use or interest to me. I do enough mental gymnastics with my rifles as it is, a damn service pistol needs to hit where it's pointed. And "service pistol" means 1 to about 35 yards. IF, for some reason I have to make a longer shot, I will have time, and I can give the sight picture some sub-divisions of the front blade just fine. This is the #2 reason I handload, so I can make things work like I want them to.

I was beginning to wonder if these things weren't regulated to compensate for a good DA trigger jerk. If I yank the DA hard I can pull the muzzle down enough to make them hit to the sights, sorta. It's difficult to acquire consistency with "trigger yank", though.

 

[Rick]

In teaching someone to shoot long range handgun it's pretty easy to see poor trigger control/trigger jerk. A right handed shooter shooting low left is most always jerking the trigger. Most common shooting off hand, the sight picture starts to come in and the shooters mind is screaming . . . NOW! Low left for sure, sometimes bad enough you want to check and make sure they didn't bend the trigger.

.

 

[9.3X62AL]

This thread prompts some reviews of my gun safe's contents.....D/A revolver first. About half of my examples have fixed/service sights, and I have yet to have a barrel bent or twisted over to make one of the things print properly downrange. To find the cause of poor placement, the first place I look is IN THE MIRROR. I make the same sorts of errors with adjustable-sighted wheelguns, so much of the time I just "center" the aperture on a new-to-me wheelgun and see what happens. Usually, hits aren't too preposterous or spread out. Grip sets that fit the user's hand(s) well are a HUGE help, esp. in double-action firing. 80% of my shooting with D/A wheelguns gets done via "trigger-cocking".