A Wide-Ranging BlatherSequence--The 32/20 WCF, What It Taught Me, And How That Happened

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I have been involved with the loading and shooting of the 32/20 WCF cartridge since about 1981. This involvement was almost contemporaneous to my start-up of bullet casting, and the growth of both experiences at the same time is closely related.

My Dad had my great-grandfather's revolver on his closet shelf throughout the time I was growing up. It was the first revolver I had ever shot, and at a very young age. It left an indelible impression upon my young mind, and that impression remains today. This wheelgun is a 1906-made Colt Bisley Model single-action with 4-3/4" barrel, caliber 32/20 WCF. Condition is about "NRA Good". This revolver and a Winchester Model 1873 carbine in 44/40 WCF were ranch arms for a number of years for my family, they saw a lot of use and not a great deal of care. A family friend and my reloading/bullet-casting mentor--Leo Reyes--worked on the Colt's hair-trigger to make it safer to carry and shoot. It is still a light-triggered arm. My great-grandpa was a bit of a rounder, it seems.

I did some reading on the subject of 32/20 WCF reloading before launching into the project and buying tools. Career events and upheavals in my personal life from mid-1981 through 1983 put a damper on a lot of hobby activities well into early 1984, but I was still able to read and do research. I was casting bullets for the 38/357 revolvers I used at work, for my 30/30 levergun, and for a 32 S&W Long/Model 31-1 x 3" at that time. A Colt Police Positive Special in 32/20 WCF came my way, so I ordered and received a die set to process ammo for this new-to-me acquisition and for the Bisley Colt.

From my reading I gathered that the 32/20 WCF in revolvers had a reputation for sticking bullets in barrels. Indeed, several examples I was considering for purchase over the years have shown evidence of exactly that--the snake-swallowed-an-egg barrel swell-out. Writers explained this phenomenon's causes as being wrong powder for the application--wide flash gaps between cylinder throat and barrel forcing cone--and that tired old mantra of "Some calibers didn't make the transition from black powder to smokeless fuels as well as others". Another boiler-plate statement about the 32/20 in revolvers was that ballistics were highly variable, with large velocity swings and inaccurate downrange results.

Caca del toro! Leo Reyes saved me a whole lot of grief, very early in the casting game. "If the bullet doesn't fit, it is NOT going to shoot well. It will lead the barrel up." I never saw Leo slug a revolver barrel, but he darn sure slugged or pin-gauged cylinder throats. He also did slugging or Cerrosafe casting of rifle chambers. He called it "Polygraphing your gun".

I slugged the throats on the Bisley (.314") and the PPS (.313"). Not very different from my S&W 31-1 throats (.314"). In 1985 I had one mould for the mid-caliber revolvers, Lyman #313492--a strange little button-nosed 93 grain wadcutter with a bore-rider front band. I also have its 38 caliber counterpart, Lyman #358432. They both are SUPERBLY accurate when sized to fit well. They don't tumble after traveling 60+ yards, either--a fact that has caused permanent consternation to a number of jackrabbits and ground squirrels.

I should note at this time that factory ammo in the revolvers was everything the writers described the 32/20 WCF as being--inconsistent, inaccurate, and grossly over-priced. I didn't stick any bullets, and watched for that carefully. I had collected about 100 rounds each of R-P and W-W fired brass by the time the tools were all on deck. Now evident was another quirk of 32/20 chamber dimensions--they are Duesenbergs--"No two are alike". Within a given cylinder, the shoulder placement is pretty close from chamber to chamber, but from revolver to revolver? Fuggetaboutit. The shoulder isn't very prominent anyway, and the sizing die conforms to the SAAMI specs closely. Would that Colt and S&W follow suit.

The RCBS OEM expander spud in the 32/20 die set is .308" diameter. That ain't gonna work with .314"-sized bullets, no matter how thin the 32/20 brass might be. (It IS thin and weak--if looked at intently, it will warp. Light thumb/forefinger pressure can crush the case mouths flat. W-W and R-P 32/20 brass is useless. Starline is far better material--go Starline, and don't look back). W-W and R-P brass also stretches EVERY firing, and does so unevenly. It MUST be trimmed after every firing, just to get "square" case mouths for consistent crimping. My Starline brass, even when run hard with rifle loads, only needs a trim every third firing, and stretches evenly. Such much better brass.

I thiefed the expander spud from the 32 S&W Long die set (.3115") for processing the weak brass, and got to work. Knowing the data from the "Pet Loads" article, I started with 5.0 grains and 5.5 grains of SR-4756 powder and the lighter-weight Lyman #313492 castings sized at .314". What a difference from the factory ammo! Consistent report and recoil, and pretty darn good accuracy at 15 and 25 yards. This was with both revolvers. This course of activity and its conssitent outcomes have continued to the present day, almost 35 years and counting. Good things happen when your bullets fit your firearm--and bad things occur when they don't. Plain as that.

These were valuable lessons. They continue to influence my hobby activity to this day.
 

david s

Well-Known Member
The most unamerican thing about me is my disdain for 30 caliber rifles and my appreciation of 30 caliber handguns. I dont care if it's 32 auto a 32 S&W, 32 S&W long/Colt or the H&R or Federal Magnum there just fun. With re-guards to the 32-20 my 1905 3rd change has a replacement 5 inch barrel. It's chambers are quite a bit larger than the Browning 53 so I ended up with 3 sets of dies trying to make things work. My assortment of 32 moulds is the most extensive out of all of the different calibers that I have moulds for. There is more than a little redundancy in some the mould designs but that's okay. Just a year ago trying to find 218 Bee brass was a no go and had been for quite a while, and 25-20 wasn't a whole lot easier. But that too was okay as 6 or 7 years ago I ordered 2000 Starline 32-20 brass and mangle it into what I need. Still plenty left over for the 32-20 though. For most of my cast bullets in 32 I just use 20-1 mix even though 40-1 would work about as well. Lately I've been using NOE's version of Lymans "M" die case mouth expanders that fit the Lee expander die. There available in different diameters are fairly cheap and work well. It's an extra step but it's worth it.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
have two relatively new to me 32-20s. Colt Army Special and Smith 2nd HE. Learning about cast bullet fit... Also have a Smith 32 Long
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
The "Edit"function on this site software is screwed up royally. It was easier to just flush the text i wrote for 30 minutes and forget about posting the info. In place of the cursor, a blue fat cursor appears and erases text instead of adding new text. If there is a fix, please advise.
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
The best thing for long posts is to do a draft in some kind of text file, like the free, included WordPad, then
once you get it how you like it, cut and paste into the input window.
If it pukes, you can recut and repaste relatively painlessly. Ask me how I know this. Not from this site,
but from others.

Bill
 

Intheshop

Banned
The elderly gentleman I was in business with for years.... who had made his mark as the head pattern maker in Philadelphia's largest WWII foundry..... "was" back during prohibition....

An honest to goodness moonshine guru. He had two revolvers from his misspent youth. One was a triple lock Smith in .44 and the other was a Smith 32-20. I cleaned both of them up pretty well(was eat/sleep/breath handgunning then) and loaded up appropriate,mid range loads. The 32-20 loaded and shot fine.... meaning,wasn't anything difficult. About what I'd expect today? But that was about 40 years ago. Good luck with your project.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Well done Allen! The 32-20 was one of the first I started loading for. No sizer back then, so it was hand lubing and hope for the best. Still a wonderful cartridge to use and shoot.
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
I've been loading and shooting 32/20 since '76. Started with a Colt PP with a shot out barrel. Even that shot good with the light loads. Over the years I've added other 32/20 rifles and pistols. Great little cartridge. Had to learn how to handle the thin RP cases and killed a few along the way but still have some at this time. Starline IS the way to go now days. Some of my 32/20's like 309 bullets, some like 312 and some in between. Not so much for lessons learned, rather a fun journey over the years.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
The best thing for long posts is to do a draft in some kind of text file, like the free, included WordPad, then
once you get it how you like it, cut and paste into the input window.
If it pukes, you can recut and repaste relatively painlessly. Ask me how I know this. Not from this site,
but from others.

Bill

I have no idea what "Word Pad" is, where it exists, or how to use it. I also don't habla computer-speak, this "cutting" and "pasting" is foreign to me. I am not very computer-literate, I admit that. The things scare me. They are expensive, and I am afraid of screwing something up to the point of unrepairability. Bulletin boards have been around for 25 years+......how is it that editing existing content is such a challenge for the software?
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
If your cursor changed from a line to a block you may have hit a key on your keyboard that locked it into a different mode. Mine does that when I go from insert mode to type over mode. May not be the software here at all. Look for a key marked insert or Ins.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
If your cursor changed from a line to a block you may have hit a key on your keyboard that locked it into a different mode. Mine does that when I go from insert mode to type over mode. May not be the software here at all. Look for a key marked insert or Ins.

OK--I think we have a winner here. Thank you, Keith.

This is not the first time this anomaly has reared its head. In times past, the mode reset itself after I turned the computer off completely and returned later to the site. I know just enough about computer usage to be PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS. This anomaly has not occurred on other sites, though. GMBTA--but I think Keith nailed the answer. From "Pogo"--"We have met the enemy, and he is US!"
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
OK--I'll chop my text up into bite-sized pieces and see if all goes well.

Size matters. A LOT. Others mention experiences with 32/20 arms having nice, tight throats and grooves. Those arms are TREASURES. I have exactly ONE arm with .311" throats--the Colt Bisley. The others have ranged from .312" to .314", and a couple I 'passed' on ran to .315" and .316". This condition caused me to wonder why Lyman INSISTED UPON making their most common 32/20 WCF mould--#311008--at .311" in Lyman #2 alloy, and sometimes smaller. Utterly USELESS.

And #311008 is not alone in that regard. Many of the black powder calibers are serviced with Lyman moulds that are biased heavily toward BP usage. They feature no crimp groove, and cast undersized for use with progressive-burning smokeless powders. They were designed to rest upon a compressed column of BP, and have a crimp set around the ogive of their noses. Lyman #401043 (38/40) and #427098 (44/40) conform to this practice as well. A number of the 38/55 and 45/70 bullets follow suit.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
When you seat your bullets as above, you needn't worry about a bullet's front drive band interfering with a rifling leade origin. I think this BP loading regimen explains why so many levergun barrels have such short throats and such abrupt leade angles--sometimes like a city street's square concrete curb edge. That is a "Chicken vs. Egg/Which Came First?" question, but the two conditions are certainly complementary.

And the undersized bullet matter? Easy answer, in the context of black powder loading bias--the soft alloys used in BP cartridge applications (40-1 to 30-1 lead/tin) "bump up" easily with the low-order detonation that black powder produces. Smokeless powder's progressive combustion is far less reliable or predictable in bumping up undersized bullets like The Holy Black does. Yes--there is some truth to the idea that some calibers did not make the transition to smokeless powder from BP seamlessly--but it wasn't the fault of the powders--it was a failure to grasp all that was happening during bullet start and acceleration down-bore.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I have no issues at all with those who shoot black powder cartridges, in the same way that I mean no disrespect toward anyone who paints or powder-coats their castings. But neither course of conduct blows my dress up, either--so what follows is meant most succinctly for the unreconstructed lazy-bones types like me that size & lube their castings and shoot powders that don't eat our brass and barrels.

We have dragged our revolvers and leverguns into the 20th and 21st Centuries, sometimes kicking and screaming, but they remain with us and we are fond of them. Most of us use both vintage bullet designs like the "008", "043", and "098" and more modern bullets that can cut clean(er) holes in target paper or animated targets. E.G., the now-extinct (at Lyman) #311316 for the 32/20 WCF, and other similar designs in other levergun calibers. #311316 can sometimes cast a bit small, my example casts at .313"+ and cleans up in my .313" H&I die completely, and is a great match for my Marlin Model 1894 CCL. In brass trimmed to 1.300", the bullet's front drive band kisses the leade origin moderately and remains accurate to almost 1900 FPS, which is as fast as the caliber should be driven using 118 grain gas-checked bullets. Bill Lose (NV Curmudgeon) has an older Marlin 1894 CL in 32/20, and his solution with #311316 has been to trim his cases back a bit--about 1.275"--in order to get a good fit of bullet front drive band to leade origin. Throats/leades vary, mould cavities vary, tools vary, and chambers vary A LOT. Sometimes we need to think outside the box a bit to make our war toys do the things we want them to do, reliably and accurately.

The 32/20 WCF helped me expand my hobby and become a far more capable hobbyist via its quirks and the processes I used to make it behave. It is NOT a 38 Special, though it is found in many make/model variants that chamber the 38 Special. If you put in the hours, the pay-off in satisfaction downrange is rich and plentiful. IME, 115-120 grain bullets have shot better for me in 32/20 than have 100 grain or 80 grain bullets--jacketed or cast. My favorite rifle bullet is the #311316; my favorite revolver bullet is one of my own design, a radiused SWC similar to Lyman #358477 in shape, reduced to .3155" in 92/6/2 and weighing 120 grains filled with Alox/BW @ .314" I still don't have a copy of Lyman #311008, and if I did I would have Mountain Molds or Accurate Molds cut it with a dedicated crimp groove and have it drop its castings at .315"-.316".
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I lucked out right off the bat and got a Lyman 311316 that runs just a whisker under .314. Wonderful design, even with the GC being a pain. Like the 358156, it just WORKS!
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
My 313316 casts a nice .311 bullet. Shoots for crap in my Marlin 32-20.
I use a 120 rnfp from a long ago Lee GB. That bullet with 5 gr of Unique shoots as well as I can hold and is all I load in the rifle now.
My 32-20 does hold the record, in my house, for vertical due to loads changes. I find that as velocity increases so does elevation. And I mean a bunch. I can got from low at 50 yards to off paper in 500 FPS.

Great little cartridge. Easy to load. Just be nice to the brass, it does have fragile case mouths.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Word Pad is a free, extremely basic, word processing tool provided free with every Windows
computer for about forever in computer years. Using it for long posts can save a huge amount of
frustration at your work suddenly being lost. If you type a paragraph in WordPad and then
select "save", and then continue to add to it, only the words since the save are at risk.

If you click on the little windows symbol at the lower left (assuming Win 7) it will show some of your
programs, the bottom line should say "all programs". If you click on that, there is a folder called "accessories".
In there is WordPad. If you click on it, a window opens and you can type in it. You can save whatever you type
as a file, putting that file any place you choose. You can save it and review, add to or modify it later, or print
it out for hardcopy.

"Cut" is done by highlighting almost any text on the screen, then holding down the ctrl key (extreme lower left) and
the "C" key simultaneously. This stores the highlighted words until you store something else over them.
Exactly how or where is unimportant.
To put those stored words somewhere else (in a place where text is appropriate), put your cursor
where you want them to appear, then hit "ctrl" and "V" simultaneously, and you have "pasted" a copy of
your stored words to that location.
They are still stored in the little storage place, too, and you could can paste them again, wherever you choose.
No need to worry about leaving those words their, the next "cut" will replace what is there.

Bill
 
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KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Bill, not to nitpick but ctrl-X cuts, ctrl-C copies. Just for record I use notepad to write all our CNC code, it is even easier to use than Wordpad but lacks a couple features I don't need for G&M code