Alliant Sport Pistol Powder
- Thread starter Tomme boy
- Start date
I found this from the Allianz site interesting.
Sport Pistol's low-muzzle-flash formulation is also optimized for polymer-coated bullets, whereas comparable powders can dissolve polymer coatings at the bullet base during ignition.
I don’t think of dissolving polymer coating as an issue during ignition but rather as a long term storage problem. Doesn’t tell me if it is better or worse in this regard. To an extent what happens on ignition doesn’t matter to me as long as the accuracy is there and it doesn’t lead to fouling issues.
Burn rate is in a very useful area. Good for a large swath of handgun cartridges. The low muzzle flash is nice too although that is something I don’t get too worked up over.
If I wasn’t so damned powder heavy for handguns it is something I would be willing to give a shot. I read one review that said this is Alliants answer to HP38/231.
Sport Pistol's low-muzzle-flash formulation is also optimized for polymer-coated bullets, whereas comparable powders can dissolve polymer coatings at the bullet base during ignition.
I don’t think of dissolving polymer coating as an issue during ignition but rather as a long term storage problem. Doesn’t tell me if it is better or worse in this regard. To an extent what happens on ignition doesn’t matter to me as long as the accuracy is there and it doesn’t lead to fouling issues.
Burn rate is in a very useful area. Good for a large swath of handgun cartridges. The low muzzle flash is nice too although that is something I don’t get too worked up over.
If I wasn’t so damned powder heavy for handguns it is something I would be willing to give a shot. I read one review that said this is Alliants answer to HP38/231.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Alliant does seem to be bound & determined to take back the market share that IMR is trying to rip off with their newer shotgun/handgun powder offerings. Hercules/Alliant has totally OWNED the shotgun/pistol powder market in my part of the country since I started loading shells in 1971. Winchester fuels were a bit harder to run down, Dupont/IMR shotgun/pistol powders were VERY tough to find--SR-4756 took me some time and effort to locate in the early 1980s in pursuit of Purina 32/20 Wheelgun Chow. WW-231 has been my go-to fuel for the 38s, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. It's nice that another powder is trying to fill that niche, but I don't want to rework what works so well already.
Ian
Notorious member
I said what? I'll go with that, got enough pistol powder for the next apocalypse, or aboutbhalf a summer's worth of Fiver's clay shooting.
Interesting a out the polymer thing, sounds like a call to Alliant is in order for some clarification. A replacement for 231 is desperately needed.
Interesting a out the polymer thing, sounds like a call to Alliant is in order for some clarification. A replacement for 231 is desperately needed.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure it was that long back that they changed it. [maybe it was, stuff seems like barely a year ago and it's been 5 anymore]
but if this power pistol stuff is anything like the old version of 231 I would be more than happy to have 4 lbs of it on hand.
IMO even better if it is a flake powder with a flash suppressant like BE-86 has.
you know I only burn up like 16-18 lbs of powder a summer.
of course our summer is only from mid-June to mid September.
might be more this summer if the young man I offered to teach how to shoot trap takes me up on the offer.
but if this power pistol stuff is anything like the old version of 231 I would be more than happy to have 4 lbs of it on hand.
IMO even better if it is a flake powder with a flash suppressant like BE-86 has.
you know I only burn up like 16-18 lbs of powder a summer.
of course our summer is only from mid-June to mid September.
might be more this summer if the young man I offered to teach how to shoot trap takes me up on the offer.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Ian, I know that the supplier the whole time has been St. Marks in Fla. They sold the same powder
to WW as 231 back when Winchester was actually in the powder business. They are pretty much
out (maybe entirely) and Hodgdon is at least handling the marketing, may have actually bought
the trademark for powder, not sure about that, though.
And Hodgdon bought different lots made to the same St. Marks spec and sold it as HP-38. Possibly St.
Marks has changed it, all the powder companies have been under EPA pressure for a long time to reduce
emissions. But Hodgdon has not changed suppliers. On many other powders, they have been forced to
change powder suppliers. The WW/Hodgdon twins have always been made by St. Marks, same plant for
basically as long as I have been loading since the middle 60s. I have known a number of the family
members as friends for almost 30 years, back when the old man was still around. If I remember, I
will ask about 231 changes next time I see one of them.
Most of the ones that have been changed were the original surplus powders when the original
literal RR hopper cars of WW2 powder were finally expended. They had to find a new source. I THINK,
that some was made in Belgium for a while but I am pretty sure that all the yellow-brownish ones
are made in Australia now. Some are specially made, others are Aussie cannister grades renamed
for Hodgdon sales. Also, when the last US IMR plant burned down a decade or two ago, the
only remaining original WW1/WW2 IMR plant was (is) in Canada. All the IMR rifle powders are still
made there by the old methods. BUT, they are under environmentalist pressures, too, so the new
powders like 4166 are made with different processes, cleaner. I have yet to try 4166, but I
have been "assured" personally by one of the top guys that it is "as good as 4064". I laughed
and expressed skepticism, and said I have a number of my very best loads with 4064 and they a
are scaring me with eventual talk of eliminating it. Couldn't get anything other than "not any
time soon, and we hear you, you are not the only person who is passionate about 4064". He
did say the prices of the old IMR powders were under price pressures as environmental costs
increase with the old mfg methods.
Bill
to WW as 231 back when Winchester was actually in the powder business. They are pretty much
out (maybe entirely) and Hodgdon is at least handling the marketing, may have actually bought
the trademark for powder, not sure about that, though.
And Hodgdon bought different lots made to the same St. Marks spec and sold it as HP-38. Possibly St.
Marks has changed it, all the powder companies have been under EPA pressure for a long time to reduce
emissions. But Hodgdon has not changed suppliers. On many other powders, they have been forced to
change powder suppliers. The WW/Hodgdon twins have always been made by St. Marks, same plant for
basically as long as I have been loading since the middle 60s. I have known a number of the family
members as friends for almost 30 years, back when the old man was still around. If I remember, I
will ask about 231 changes next time I see one of them.
Most of the ones that have been changed were the original surplus powders when the original
literal RR hopper cars of WW2 powder were finally expended. They had to find a new source. I THINK,
that some was made in Belgium for a while but I am pretty sure that all the yellow-brownish ones
are made in Australia now. Some are specially made, others are Aussie cannister grades renamed
for Hodgdon sales. Also, when the last US IMR plant burned down a decade or two ago, the
only remaining original WW1/WW2 IMR plant was (is) in Canada. All the IMR rifle powders are still
made there by the old methods. BUT, they are under environmentalist pressures, too, so the new
powders like 4166 are made with different processes, cleaner. I have yet to try 4166, but I
have been "assured" personally by one of the top guys that it is "as good as 4064". I laughed
and expressed skepticism, and said I have a number of my very best loads with 4064 and they a
are scaring me with eventual talk of eliminating it. Couldn't get anything other than "not any
time soon, and we hear you, you are not the only person who is passionate about 4064". He
did say the prices of the old IMR powders were under price pressures as environmental costs
increase with the old mfg methods.
Bill
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Ain't it just like the goobermint--to want to turn wrenches on things not broken, and to leave intact and undisturbed that which is collapsed and kaput?
It is not good practice to over-work or over-stress ANY mechanism, but the Colt/Browning 1911A1 pistol and its close derivatives are sturdy, stalwart devices. There was a time in the dim, distant past (early-to-mid 1980s) when the Cal-DOJ Bureau of Forensic Services did some front-end research and development at their crime labs. There was a cadre of VERY CAPABLE chemists, ballisticians, criminalists, and forensic firearms people at their laboratories. I was closely acquainted with these folks during my early career, and both they and I mourn the loss of Cal-DOJ's contributions to the body of knowledge concerning firearms examinations in particular and general forensics overall. The State gets distracted easily is a kind way of putting it.
Germane to this text are some tests done upon some 1911A1-pattern 45 ACP pistols Court-ordered for destruction. The gun guys decided to have some fun with these 45s, about 2 dozen all told. Surely, double-charges of Bullseye under 230 grain FMJRN bullets would "grenade" these pistols, some of which were WWII-vintage and had seen hard use.
Fixture-firing with scatter shields commenced about 9:30 A.M. one fine weekday morning. Every last one of those pistols held together--functioned completely (if vigorously) and showed no signs of breakage of pressure changes--not even cracks around the slide stop holes. All of the pistols fired at least 5 rounds, a couple were given 3 magazines'-full. No damage. A few pieces of brass (all W-W, IIRC) had "smilies" over unsupported chamber portions of the barrels, about like what Gen 2 Glock 40 S&Ws did.
Heavily-compressed triple charges of Bullseye under 230 grain Ball bullets finally "destroyed" the guns, but neither explosively or catastrophically a la Glock kBs. The guns all "held"--the chambers swelled enough to tie up slide travel, and in a couple examples (after autopsy) the ejectors were sheared loose. This may have been due as much to the prior double-charges as to the 3X powder weight (15 grains of Bullseye) crammed and compressed into the case. The unsupported case head portions did swell out significantly, but they all held. At least one of the slide stop holes in each of the frames did crack. I was VERY surprised by these results, and stayed all day to see for myself what would occur.
In later years, when I read about the Colt Delta Elite 10mms developing cracks in their slide stop holes......I thought about this test series in the context of that information.
It is not good practice to over-work or over-stress ANY mechanism, but the Colt/Browning 1911A1 pistol and its close derivatives are sturdy, stalwart devices. There was a time in the dim, distant past (early-to-mid 1980s) when the Cal-DOJ Bureau of Forensic Services did some front-end research and development at their crime labs. There was a cadre of VERY CAPABLE chemists, ballisticians, criminalists, and forensic firearms people at their laboratories. I was closely acquainted with these folks during my early career, and both they and I mourn the loss of Cal-DOJ's contributions to the body of knowledge concerning firearms examinations in particular and general forensics overall. The State gets distracted easily is a kind way of putting it.
Germane to this text are some tests done upon some 1911A1-pattern 45 ACP pistols Court-ordered for destruction. The gun guys decided to have some fun with these 45s, about 2 dozen all told. Surely, double-charges of Bullseye under 230 grain FMJRN bullets would "grenade" these pistols, some of which were WWII-vintage and had seen hard use.
Fixture-firing with scatter shields commenced about 9:30 A.M. one fine weekday morning. Every last one of those pistols held together--functioned completely (if vigorously) and showed no signs of breakage of pressure changes--not even cracks around the slide stop holes. All of the pistols fired at least 5 rounds, a couple were given 3 magazines'-full. No damage. A few pieces of brass (all W-W, IIRC) had "smilies" over unsupported chamber portions of the barrels, about like what Gen 2 Glock 40 S&Ws did.
Heavily-compressed triple charges of Bullseye under 230 grain Ball bullets finally "destroyed" the guns, but neither explosively or catastrophically a la Glock kBs. The guns all "held"--the chambers swelled enough to tie up slide travel, and in a couple examples (after autopsy) the ejectors were sheared loose. This may have been due as much to the prior double-charges as to the 3X powder weight (15 grains of Bullseye) crammed and compressed into the case. The unsupported case head portions did swell out significantly, but they all held. At least one of the slide stop holes in each of the frames did crack. I was VERY surprised by these results, and stayed all day to see for myself what would occur.
In later years, when I read about the Colt Delta Elite 10mms developing cracks in their slide stop holes......I thought about this test series in the context of that information.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
a lot of that pressure is coming from Europe.
they won't alloy imported goods to exceed their waste management practices or percentages.
it [the waste] also has to follow their handling and 'storage' procedures.
this put a lot of stress on the makers during the last shortage.
between that being implemented at the plants, and the fire at the ADI plant, as well as increased demand from shooters here in the US the shortage become quite real.
it's also why we are seeing the new 'cloned' powders and the new enduron type powders.
the makers know if they want to corner the market on something all they have to do is lower the price below their competitors.
like right now.
Alliant has a 2$ a lb rebate [why didn't they just lower the price 2$?]
same as Winchester doing a 2$ rebate on their AA target shells once or twice a year, and Remington has 12 ga. shot shells 'on sale' for 5$ a box all the time, or Federal running a 'rebate' on their hunting ammo.
they won't alloy imported goods to exceed their waste management practices or percentages.
it [the waste] also has to follow their handling and 'storage' procedures.
this put a lot of stress on the makers during the last shortage.
between that being implemented at the plants, and the fire at the ADI plant, as well as increased demand from shooters here in the US the shortage become quite real.
it's also why we are seeing the new 'cloned' powders and the new enduron type powders.
the makers know if they want to corner the market on something all they have to do is lower the price below their competitors.
like right now.
Alliant has a 2$ a lb rebate [why didn't they just lower the price 2$?]
same as Winchester doing a 2$ rebate on their AA target shells once or twice a year, and Remington has 12 ga. shot shells 'on sale' for 5$ a box all the time, or Federal running a 'rebate' on their hunting ammo.
Ian
Notorious member
The bean counters figure a certain percentage (like half) of the rebates won't actually be claimed, or the forms won't be filled out correctly and honored, so they get the same purchase incentive without having to cut the price and save half the money. Essentially they make more sales to people who are attracted to the concept of getting a special "discount" rather than a lower, un-advertised normal price. Lots of Ph,D shrinkers on the ad staff of big companies using their expertise to play mind games with John Q. Public, while the MD shrinkers are actually in private offices trying to heal people.
From what I understand about powder manufacture, the final washing process that removes the solvents creates a large quantity of toxic waste. The newer powders are being formulated to minimize or eliminate this step and waste. I'm all for that, provided the powders perform. I have to wonder though, in the greater scheme of things, how much waste is REALLY being produced by a handful of powder companies annually? It has to pale in comparison to a day at Alcoa, so what's the big deal with powder companies? Tin foil Stetson time....
From what I understand about powder manufacture, the final washing process that removes the solvents creates a large quantity of toxic waste. The newer powders are being formulated to minimize or eliminate this step and waste. I'm all for that, provided the powders perform. I have to wonder though, in the greater scheme of things, how much waste is REALLY being produced by a handful of powder companies annually? It has to pale in comparison to a day at Alcoa, so what's the big deal with powder companies? Tin foil Stetson time....
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
I had some exposure (!) to the HazMat Hazmutant mindset during the time I worked drug labs (1989-1993, and again in 1996). There is some merit to their environmental concerns, no doubt about it. The biggest boondoggles in that realm are the prices being charged to store, mitigate, and decontaminate these materials. Most of the companies in this business are also in the trash-hauling business, and they use the same organized-crime business practices that have been successful in the trash-hauling venue to run the toxic waste management businesses. This is a rant sequence that could turn this thread blue with content and lengthen the text to Tolstoy/War and Peace duration. Nobody needs that.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Ian, you are correct in principle, but the washing is to remove the residual acids (nitric and sulfuric) used in
the nitrating process. If there is residual acid, the powder will oxidize more rapidly. It will be fine powder,
but have a shorter shelf life. I suspect that the newer powder processes somehow manage to use some
different way to solve this problem besides endless water rinses. I have discussed the broad principles of
powder making with my friends a few times over the years, so have a smidgen of knowledge, but no
depth beyond having had some questions answered by people who DO have the depth of knowledge.
Bill
the nitrating process. If there is residual acid, the powder will oxidize more rapidly. It will be fine powder,
but have a shorter shelf life. I suspect that the newer powder processes somehow manage to use some
different way to solve this problem besides endless water rinses. I have discussed the broad principles of
powder making with my friends a few times over the years, so have a smidgen of knowledge, but no
depth beyond having had some questions answered by people who DO have the depth of knowledge.
Bill