Cup Point added to a 358439 HP mold?

Mowgli Terry

Active Member
I just got a return email from Erik Ohlen concerning a mold conversion. The mold is to go into the mail next week. The hollow point mold is an Ideal#358439 (358429 HP). The original pin is missing. That pin is to be replaced. Plans are to also get a cup point pin. The mold is used but not beat up. I plan to use an alloy of 8 BH or so.

I'd like some comments and direction on this project. Also, comments on the merits of casting these bullets with a cupped point. Am I missing the mark?
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Not missing the mark depending on what your target is. Erik has made replacement pins for me, mostly shorter pins. Lyman cavity depth is extreme in many cases and guaranteed in most cases, even at modest velocities to blow the nose off the bullet.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
Erik is only about 45 miles up the road from me. I have thought on several occasions about having him convert a mold for me. He does stellar work and I'm sure you will be happy.
I think that cup point will work just fine, especially at higher velocities. I would imagine you would have much better weight retention and still get good expansion.
 

david s

Well-Known Member
I have a NOE RG4 hollow point mould in the 385429 SWC style. It has a cup pin as well as a deeper hollow point pin and solid point pin. Unfortunately the one pin not used has been the cup style. With 20-1 alloy at about 1200 fps the solid bullet will begin to expand depending on what it actually hits along the way. The deeper hollow point pin doesn't tend to let the bullet base punch thru the expanded portion of my bullets but there not being pushed that hard either. I also haven't used the deep pin bullets all that much. With a 8 BHN the cup pin may be the best compromise, but if pushed at around 1200 fps I would bet that the solid bullets with the same hardness would begin expanding as well.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
A cup point is useful for reducing bullet nose expansion, and improving bullet penetration. I seem to recall Keith mentioning that the early 358429 HP design would blow up jack rabbits with full power loads as far as he could hit them. While the 358429 HP remained available, Ideal shortened the hollowpoint cavity a bit from the original design, and the 358439 was born as a production hollowpoint Keith design. My understanding is that the 358429 HP was only offered as a factory modification to original design, and that they were all special order only. Perhaps Ric or Glenn could shed a little more light on this. My factory HP mould is a 358439, and I've cast a lot of them. Check out my avatar for a pic of my 358439 next to one of my 358156 HPs for reference.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Among antique tool collectors there is not any definitive written evidence about what the truth is on the 429 HP and 439. We have seen 358429 HP marked moulds always in the prewar time period. At that time Lyman would make a single cavity HP of any mould they made on request. The Lyman Handbook #32 from about 1936 lists the 358439 as the most popular hollow pointed 38 caliber mould. Whether they would make '429 HP I don't know.

The only '429 HP mould I ever had had a long pin and was very broad, and hard to get good nose fill out. The couple of '439's I have owned had shorter and more tapered pins. I suspect that they were easier to cast with shorter pins?

Keith mentioned several times in his writing, that Lyman changed his pin designs, but usually just leaves it as "for ease of manufacture". He also mentions that the 454424 HP and 452423 HP had the exact same pin design.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I have a NOE RG4 hollow point mould in the 385429 SWC style. It has a cup pin as well as a deeper hollow point pin and solid point pin. Unfortunately the one pin not used has been the cup style. With 20-1 alloy at about 1200 fps the solid bullet will begin to expand depending on what it actually hits along the way. The deeper hollow point pin doesn't tend to let the bullet base punch thru the expanded portion of my bullets but there not being pushed that hard either. I also haven't used the deep pin bullets all that much. With a 8 BHN the cup pin may be the best compromise, but if pushed at around 1200 fps I would bet that the solid bullets with the same hardness would begin expanding as well.
I read that and the thought occurred that most reading that from other sites (and some here) would be thinking, "You CAN'T get 1200fps from 8 Bhn!!!! You need HARDCAST!!!!!!!" ;)
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
I still see all sorts of bad advice on the ninnynet. I used to attempt to straighten things out a bit at times, but have since given up. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and only annoys the pig. In my mind, I can see their eyes glaze over with incomprehension.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Best answer is to buy a lathe and mill and make whatever you want.
 

Mowgli Terry

Active Member
Comments noted. Mold should go into the mail on Monday. Thanks for the help. I'll share the outcome. In the meantime I'll do some casting to get a vintage 358477 HP mold going.
 
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Mowgli Terry

Active Member
358477: I use this bullet extensively in my 38 Specials with light target loads. That HP mold was among several from an estate. I'll fiddle also with a 358156 HP from the same estate while that other mold is with Erik Ohlen. This crap is highly addictive. Love your colors.
 
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Walks

Well-Known Member
I have an old #358429HP, might even be #429439. Haven't looked at it in years. Probably because My Dad's old Colt OP 6" shoots to POA at 25yrds with the solid over a +P charge of Unique.

I too favor the #358477 for all non Cowboy shooting in a .38Spl case.