Favorite "smaller than deer" cartridge?

jerry w

Member
The 25 Copperhead is what originally got me thinking about a 25-223 cartridge, building one has been on my mind for years after reading John Wooter's(?) articles. The 25-45 Sharps is nice as it needs no trimming or forming other than running a .223 case into a 25-45 die and you are ready to load, being that Sharps had dies made they are available at a much better price than other similar wildcat dies. They had both RCBS and Redding sets available and i went with the Redding set. I really enjoy my Marlin 25-20 but it will be nice to have scoped bolt gun loaded to similar ballistics, once i get going with this rifle i plan on having Lee make me a collet neck sizing which will make reloading very quick and easy. I really look forward to seeing what i can do with the hollow pointed 257420's, while i can drive them pretty quick out of the Marlin the higher pressure loads certainly shorten case life so i never shot a lot of them at higher velocities. It would be fun to find a 2000fps load that shot well out of the new rifle, at 1800fps those little hollow points will rip a red squirrel in half with a body hit and literally decapitate a rabbit with a head shot. The old Lee group buy bullet is great when loaded to 1400fps and very quiet but effective and makes a great alternative to outrageous priced .22's for plinking and bunny hunting. That 6 gang mold will really crank the bullets out quick and makes a cheap load to shoot, been using 9gr's of surplus Data 68 in the 25-20 and it will probably only take another grain or two to achieve the same velocity in the 25-45.
 

Bullshop

Member
Yes and with the case volume to caliber should exhibit great flexibility in loads that shoot well from top to bottom pressure levels. I am torn though in deciding what twist would be best suited for my use. I would likely compromise and go with a 12" twist since for my use means almost exclusively shooting cast bullets and likely would never get pointed at anything bigger than a coyote and then only on rare occasions.
I have been pondering a new 25 cal design specifically for cast bullets and utilizing the 223 case. Basically this would use the shoulder location of the 221 case but with a long neck. It would or will if it ever happens be called the 25 CBC to describe its intended use as a cast bullet cartridge. It would be something on the order of a long necked 256 Win mag but on a rimless case so better suited to longer bullets and bolt actions than the Win version.
That little 256 is a hummer that outclasses the 25-20 by quite a margin but with the very short neck is not well suited to cast bullets with more than one lube groove and the rimmed case limits its use of action types. I don't know why the Marlin levermatic never became popular in the 256 chambering because they are quite an impressive performing lever gun in 25 cal. I guess at the time there were too many other bigger badder better choices for varmint rigs.
 

Outpost75

Active Member
I have found that any .30 caliber "deer rifle" from .30-30 to .30-'06 capacity, will accomplish the small game chores just fine using an appropriately sized SOFT cast bullet with flat nose, weighing from 125-160 grains, using a powder puff charge of 4-6 grains of Bullseye. I like the Accurate 31-134D bullet in rifles with worn throats, or the 31-125D in newer rifles with tighter necks and unworn throats. The 31-155D gets the nod for worn barrels with LONG throats as in the .30-40 Krag. As a general rule I start with 4 grains of Bullseye in small cases like the 7.62x39 or .30-30, 5 grains in the Krag or .303 British, and 6 grains in the .308 Win. or .30-'06. The starting loads are best for low noise, but if bullet stability is marginal it is safe to increase the base charge up to 1-1/2 grains in the weak actioned rifles like Krags or lever actions, or up to 2 grains in the '98 Mauser, '03 Springfield and modern boltguns. With plainbased bullets accuracy will suffer before pressure becomes excessive. Let grouping be your guide. Accurate cast bullet loads are safe.

NO FILLER is needed with these Bullseye loads! 31-125D-D.png 31-155D-D.png 31-134D-D.png
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Howdy Swede
A DW 357 was got me started using DW's. Those 8 & 10 inch barrels make for one dandy hunting rig. Used a 10" with 180 gc FN bullets to mass steel critters for 2 years.
Mike in Peru
 

jerry w

Member
jerry w
I am very interested in hearing about your 25-45 sharps. What twist rate did you go with?
Well i finally got a my 25-45 Sharps up and running, took a little time to install a new Timney trigger and glass bedded the action before i started shooting. The new trigger is awesome and a welcome change. My first loads were 19grs of RL-15 with some Remington 86 grain 25-20 bullets and they would consistently chew the center out of a 1" dot @ 100 yards, new light load that should be right around 2000fps. Today i tried a couple full power loads with jacketed bullets, used 27 grains of H335 with both the 90 grain BlitzKings and 87gr Speer TNT's, the BlitzKings came under .4" and the TNT's stayed about .6", needless to say i was pleased. Picture with cartridges shows a .223 on the left compared to the 25-45's.IMG_1587.jpgIMG_1585.JPG IMG_1582.JPG
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
220 Swift back in the day. Winny pre 64. bedded and floated with a Balvar 24 scope, I could head shoot chucks at 600 yards. I once had the scope off to do some work, needed to sight again and I always zeroed at 350 yards. Darn I shot a 1/4" group of five. 60 gr Hornady, 4064 powder but forget all else. That scope was amazing and as long as my rifle. My longest crow shot was 410 yards and at 350, only the wings came down. I did not need to see, I could hear the hits.
Then the Rem .222, beat the pants off any others. .223 never beat it and neither did the .222 mag.
Another great was the .244 Rem for small varmints at super long ranges. .243 was back stage but won out due to twist rate for heavier deer bullets. I still do not like it.
Guns I don't like are .223, .243, 22-250 and a few others. But the .223 has been going through twist changes to super fast for heavy bullets. All started with twist rates for light bullets and they did not carry far enough.
Even longer ago was the old 1892 marlin 25-20, I want all of you to line up and beat me for getting rid of so many wonders.
Grass was greener over the fence with gun rags but they were wrong and still are.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
My two favorites with cast are a Low-Wall 25-20 with a 1 weight barrel and a 3x Malcolm-Leatherwood scope on it, shooting the RCBS 25-85-CM with Trail Boss to the neck or 4 gr. of Unique. Number two is an old Stevens Ideal 32-20 with a copper blade front and a Cape Outfitter tang rear, shooting the RCBS 32-90-CM with 16 gr. of 3f, or 4.2 gr. of Unique. Nicest squirrel hammers I've ever used. I was shocked last weekend when 4 of us started picking small steel targets off the 200 meter rail with almost zero misses from a rest. We got cocky and burned up the remaining ammo off hand with enough hits to satisfy. Quiet, cheap on powder and lead. Bullets are shot as cast, tumbled in BLL except for the black powder loads.
 

Freischütz

New Member
Marlin 1894CL in 25-20. Also a Savage 23 in the same caliber. Both are easy on lead and powder supplies. The Savage seems to prefer jacketed bullets.

Too bad 25-20 brass has become so hard to find.
 

Intheshop

Banned
Got a minty 6mm Rem,700v I bought 35 or more years ago?It was BK(before kids)so,closer to 40.

Worked up a jword load,it always preferred a FB 100.The Sierras would win on paper but the hot core Speers were a touch better on a forensic scale.But that's taking nit picking to a whole nuther level.Either bullet would get it done.

It had,sorta has....the 6-18 Burris,mildot original scope.The dot is ok for certain applications but am growing away from them more and more.The rifle "needs" a nice slim'ish 4-12....plain jain,and we'll hot rod it ourselves.Which is why I sorta don't shoot it,yup....laziness.

BUT,the rifle has less than 400 rnd count.It was a killing machine that didn't require squat for load development.A few years ago I ran some cast through it and my jaw hit the floor.

First 15 rounds,fired single shot(no ejector),as fast as I could jerk the trigger/reload.....off a bipod...went into one single hole @ 75yds.Mind you,this was the very first boolit load tryed.IMR4759 ,subsequently found to be in the 1650fps range.

It has seen a hundred more boolits since that day....needs a different scope.That long skinny Burris,while period correct....has the mildot.And I may be a touch crazy but there's no good reason to open it up.

So,while I'd choose my crow killin Savage if we were in the field today,or maybe our budding 22-250......that ole walnut 6V 700 is right up there as a favorite.
 
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Edward R Southgate

Component Hoarder Extraordiniare
I would say .22 Hornet but I would not use that for cast bullets and this is a cast bullet site so I will say .25-20.
I used to have one in 92 Winchester and it was a pure delight.

Why not ?? I have shot cast in both the Hornets and the .218 bees . I don't really have one cartridge for smaller game but load heavy and light for any number of cartridges. I use the Hornet for anything from Coyote to gray squirrels but just as often I will use a .38 spl , .44 spl , .32 SW with long or short cases . I have a Piper Martini rifle that I would like one day to have converted to center fire to use as a woods walking rifle. I been thinking a .32 SW would be nice or maybe a custom cartridge based on a .32 necked to .25 .

Eddie
 
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