RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I agree with Ian, as long as the temperatures
are moderate and it is not too humid during a long match.
are moderate and it is not too humid during a long match.
Figured Out My Flyers
- Thread starter Snakeoil
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
The main thing is we know what to expect from 50/50 because so many shooters have used it for so long and its performance has been well-documented for decades in competition. It's a pretty sure way to eliminate lube as a cause of Rob's flyers, with the velocity/temperature/humidity caveats of course.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ian is right, 60 years of use and thousands of shooters empirical data.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Got it. Appreciate the background info. To be honest, never paid much attention to the reasons behind the ingredients in Paul's lube. All I knew was that it worked in my Shiloh in pretty much any temp. My bore was a two wet patch and one dry and it was clean at the end of the day.
Back then there was also an standard opinion that no petroleum based oils/greases belonged in BP lubes. I think part of that stems from BP lubes originating before we discovered oil and the use of stuff like whale oil and such at the time.
I first came hear a year or so ago, maybe less, to learn about lubes. It got rather complicated fast. I have many sticks of Paul's lube that I made, but was not happy with it oozing out at the bottom of the bullet in the sizer and having to clean off the punch die and wipe the bottom of the bullet off. Never had this issue with that big 530 gr Paul Jones Postell. But then in talking with guys at the club, I found out everybody deals with this at the smaller calibers. One of the members here was kind enough to send some special waxes to me. I never did try to make a different lube. But I certainly have a reason to do that now.
By the way, Ric, that's a very nice group. Is that 100 yds. If that is 200, that's a damn nice group!!
Another incentive to change the barrel is to have more bullets choices at my disposal. The guys at the club probably own collectively just about every 30 cal mold known to man. Everyone is more than happy to loan a mold so another shooter and test some loads. I was on a quest to shoot longer, heavier bullets for better long range performance in the wind, but the recoil is more than I care to tolerate. I have a floater that is still partially attached to my retina and my Doc says no heavy recoil. He's a trap shooter and he quit shooting trap for that reason. So, I'm relegated to 170 to maybe 200 gr bullets for the time being.
By the way, I found two very good tutorials on the web for how to remove and install an 03 barrel. They differ a bit in technique. But otherwise are the same and very nicely done. One is a thread on the CMP forum by Chuckindenver, who I see is a highly respected milsurp rifle builder. I plan to call him today to see if I can pick his brain a bit.
Back then there was also an standard opinion that no petroleum based oils/greases belonged in BP lubes. I think part of that stems from BP lubes originating before we discovered oil and the use of stuff like whale oil and such at the time.
I first came hear a year or so ago, maybe less, to learn about lubes. It got rather complicated fast. I have many sticks of Paul's lube that I made, but was not happy with it oozing out at the bottom of the bullet in the sizer and having to clean off the punch die and wipe the bottom of the bullet off. Never had this issue with that big 530 gr Paul Jones Postell. But then in talking with guys at the club, I found out everybody deals with this at the smaller calibers. One of the members here was kind enough to send some special waxes to me. I never did try to make a different lube. But I certainly have a reason to do that now.
By the way, Ric, that's a very nice group. Is that 100 yds. If that is 200, that's a damn nice group!!
Another incentive to change the barrel is to have more bullets choices at my disposal. The guys at the club probably own collectively just about every 30 cal mold known to man. Everyone is more than happy to loan a mold so another shooter and test some loads. I was on a quest to shoot longer, heavier bullets for better long range performance in the wind, but the recoil is more than I care to tolerate. I have a floater that is still partially attached to my retina and my Doc says no heavy recoil. He's a trap shooter and he quit shooting trap for that reason. So, I'm relegated to 170 to maybe 200 gr bullets for the time being.
By the way, I found two very good tutorials on the web for how to remove and install an 03 barrel. They differ a bit in technique. But otherwise are the same and very nicely done. One is a thread on the CMP forum by Chuckindenver, who I see is a highly respected milsurp rifle builder. I plan to call him today to see if I can pick his brain a bit.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Looked on line for 50/50 NRA lube. Several sell it. But nobody seem to confirm that it is the original formula with Alox 2138F, which is no longer made so has to be made from Alox 350. One of my shooting buddies that told me about Javalina, said he knows the guy that bought the original recipe. I kinda think that if that recipe were just Alox 350 and beeswax, he'd be hopping mad about paying for it. So, I suspect it is a recipe that includes creating Alox 2138F. I'm going to contact them to see if they'll tell me.
Spoke with Chuckindenver, Warpath Vintage LLC. According to the CMP site, Chuck is "the guy" for building milsurp rifles. I had a friend with a very nice 03A3 4 groove Rem. bbl which I think I mentioned in a previous post. Chuck said he would not put an A3 bbl on an 03. I guess he views it as sacrilege. I'm okay with that. Man has high standards and convictions. Always a good thing. He suggested a Criterion and we talked about it. He said they will not outshoot a good GI bbl. They are good, but not better than a good GI. He might have a take-off 03 in my year range. Said it will be good because he does not keep bad ones. He donates them to the local BOCES for them to practice on. He also said he's built over 150 USMC Sniper replica. He gets $4000 each for those. He make small subtle changes that only an expert can find so his are not sold as original USMC Sniper rifles. Said he did see one of his being represented as original and for sale for $10,000. He was not very happy about that.
So, if he has a good barrel, my guess is I'll be sending my barreled action out to him.
regards,
Rob
Spoke with Chuckindenver, Warpath Vintage LLC. According to the CMP site, Chuck is "the guy" for building milsurp rifles. I had a friend with a very nice 03A3 4 groove Rem. bbl which I think I mentioned in a previous post. Chuck said he would not put an A3 bbl on an 03. I guess he views it as sacrilege. I'm okay with that. Man has high standards and convictions. Always a good thing. He suggested a Criterion and we talked about it. He said they will not outshoot a good GI bbl. They are good, but not better than a good GI. He might have a take-off 03 in my year range. Said it will be good because he does not keep bad ones. He donates them to the local BOCES for them to practice on. He also said he's built over 150 USMC Sniper replica. He gets $4000 each for those. He make small subtle changes that only an expert can find so his are not sold as original USMC Sniper rifles. Said he did see one of his being represented as original and for sale for $10,000. He was not very happy about that.
So, if he has a good barrel, my guess is I'll be sending my barreled action out to him.
regards,
Rob
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Are you familiar with his work, Ben? I'm not. I'm just going by what others have said on CMP and read a few of his posts which are very helpful. He does not seem to hide any secrets. My only concern, and I'll discuss this with him before I send my rifle, is head spacing on a used barrel. I want match grade head spacing. Otherwise, I might as well put a Criterion on the rifle.
fiver
Well-Known Member
the only difference between the old and new alox is the paraffin content. [and a few other slack waxes]
Alox in it's basic form is basically burnt Vaseline and calcium.
Vaseline is mineral oil and paraffin.
the new alox can be cloosed up to be like the old stuff by adding in about 10% more paraffin.
Alox in it's basic form is basically burnt Vaseline and calcium.
Vaseline is mineral oil and paraffin.
the new alox can be cloosed up to be like the old stuff by adding in about 10% more paraffin.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Snakeoil, Yes that is five shots at 100 at the National Matches, Puyallup, WA. It was 95% luck (and not even a record group). The missing 5% is it was a misting foggy morning with light wind and every other Mod Iron shooter that year was using very thin after market Lyman 17A apertures. I stuck with the thick one as I couldn't see the thins against the blowing fog. With a 10 minute time, they had to shoot, but I could see through my front aperture just fine. That is about as bad of group of 5 shot groups I ever saw in a match, by the way. Ric
Ian
Notorious member
Just about the only thing Joe B and I can agree on is our opinion that groups produced under match conditions with serious competition present are no BS. It takes a lot more than luck to shoot like that, especially with irons. I can barely manage 2" groups at 100 with irons.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Thanks for the kind words Ian, but I have shot probably 200 five shot groups with that rifle in 20 years of competition. Both scoped and iron sighted, it is a very reliable 7/8 to 1 1/8 MOA rifle out to 300 yards. So to shoot a group like that under poor conditions has to be lucky.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I'd rather be lucky than good any day.
Well, I've abandoned my Chuckindenver solution. He never got back to me to say if he had a good barrel for me. And I went to his FB page and I have to say that the groups he has up there for the rifles he built were not... well let's just say I was not impressed. My pitted 03 barrel can do that or better. He also shows welding on 03 receivers, filling in sight holes. Not crazy about that practice either. So, I'll leave it at that and am back in the solution searching mode. I have an option and may just take it. NOS High Standard barrel sill in the tattered wrapper. No cheap, but not junk and with sight collar in place from the factory.
It's only money, right?
Well, I've abandoned my Chuckindenver solution. He never got back to me to say if he had a good barrel for me. And I went to his FB page and I have to say that the groups he has up there for the rifles he built were not... well let's just say I was not impressed. My pitted 03 barrel can do that or better. He also shows welding on 03 receivers, filling in sight holes. Not crazy about that practice either. So, I'll leave it at that and am back in the solution searching mode. I have an option and may just take it. NOS High Standard barrel sill in the tattered wrapper. No cheap, but not junk and with sight collar in place from the factory.
It's only money, right?
Ian
Notorious member
Sometimes your trigger jerk, flinch, and the little gusts from the Gods all line up for you instead of the usual. Still, you have to build a load you can trust in a rifle you know well and be able to put it all together any time, anywhere, under whatever conditions the day offers if you're going to do well in competition, and that was my point.....winning groups may have had some luck to help them but luck is only part of it, you know what the rifle can do because you've done the WORK and you wouldn't be BSing me if you said you had a rifle and load that will kill a coffee mug five times in a row at 300 yards.
Rob, if you're just chasing flyers, try a different lube. Might have to re-tune your load a few tenths to dial it in and shoot 10-20 so get the bore seasoned and settled in, but after that I'd put 100 or so downrange and see how the statistics play out brfore yankinh off the barrel.
Rob, if you're just chasing flyers, try a different lube. Might have to re-tune your load a few tenths to dial it in and shoot 10-20 so get the bore seasoned and settled in, but after that I'd put 100 or so downrange and see how the statistics play out brfore yankinh off the barrel.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
A suggestion my friend John gave me today, and he's a long time BR shooter and wrote the history of Pine Tree Gun Club, is to put some moly down the barrel, maybe 10 or 20 bullets to see if it will not fill up some of the pitting. Nothing to lose if I do decide to try it.
I have 50/50 from White Label ordered. Spent some time today boiling out my Lubrisizer in prep for the new lube while I waited for the glue to dry on a new reticle I made for a friend's Junior Target Spot. Both lubrisizer and new reticle came out great.
I have 50/50 from White Label ordered. Spent some time today boiling out my Lubrisizer in prep for the new lube while I waited for the glue to dry on a new reticle I made for a friend's Junior Target Spot. Both lubrisizer and new reticle came out great.
I shoot four rifles in our local mil surp 03a3,303,k31, and a Turk, always cast (only one" for five years, if I am shooting tight core groups with one or two 9 ring maybe an eight ring now and then I figure it's me or lube, bullet, or case prep, it helped a lot when I started lubing only the bottom two grooves. Shooting five ten shot groups, two for group three for score it amazes me one can be 1.6 and another can be 3.5 all the same load, so for me "with open sights" shooting a handful for a test is meaningless, so I keep notes and average The whole match and make small changes on the basis of 50 or 60 shots
Bill
Bill
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
For a long time, I lubed four of the 266469's seven grooves, then one day I lubed only the exposed gas check shank and the groove above it and the Swede's accuracy increased.