Finally got my .38's shooting right!

[Ian]

After fussing with several .38 Special revolvers off and on for years, I finally got a load worked out that they all like: 358-125-RF Lee six-cavity mould makes the bullets that hit to the fixed-sight aim point from point-blank to 30 yards. Then I powder coat them with a Polyester TGIC powder using #5 plastic storage tub with snap-flap lid, silcone seal, and airsoft BBs, bake for 20 minutes at verified 400°F, then size to .3580". Alloy is half clip-on, half stick-on WW (works the best so far), cases are RA military spanning three decades of manufacture, primers are CCI-400, and the best part......Winchester AA473 powder. Had to dig hard for load data and do some careful workups in my buddies Ruger GP-100 (pro tip: always experiment with mystery powders using someone else's revolver ), but between my crumbling Speer #11 manual and some internet research, I got there. Quickload doesn't even list that powder, probably because I must have found some of the last of it in existence.

Turns out the ancient 12-pound keg of AA473 I got for the price of returning one pound with chronographed, safe load data is quite handy for the .38, and I settled on exactly the same grain weight as the Titegroup load that also shoots well with the same combo: 4.3 grains.

Now I have about 3/4 of a 5-gallon bucket of brass to trim and de-burr.....

 

[Winelover]

And.......you need to trim 38 Special brass, why? Never trimmed handgun brass in over 40 years of reloading.

 

[Rick]

Any brass that gets crimped needs to be trimmed. Any brass that head spaces on the case mouth needs to be trimmed. All brass needs to be within SAMMI specs to assure it chambers without interference.

 

[Winelover]

I beg to differ......unless your prepping your brass for long range "silly wet" competition. Thirty 38 Special, head spaces on the rim. IIRC...38 Super on the case mouth.

 

[Ian]

John, you're the only person I've ever heard say that. Even with carefully-preserved lots of brass, the lengths after the first firing are all over the map, and the mouths usually are pretty far out of square. Not to mention the ragged inside edge of the mouths. After trimming, I get about four firings maximum (and that's pushing it on that last loading) before I have to trim again. When I say "have to trim", that means if I don't, some mouths overshoot the crimp groove, some only on one side, some don't grow much at all and are still almost ok. It's impossible to get a uniform crimp without frequent trimming. This is purely a matter of making functional reloads, not necessarily competition-ready ammunition. Believe me, if I could skip it, I would.

 

[Winelover]

Like I said, I have never had to trim handgun brass and that includes 9mm, which head spaces on the rim. At most I do is separate according to headstamps. As a matter of fact, my die sets are hardly ever readjusted and I go back and forth using the spaces/washers when loading 38/357 and 44 Special/44 Magnum. At one time, I use to chamfer the mouths after every firing....then I got wise....only chamfer after trimming and that is very rare. Since I went with the RCBS X-dies, I haven't even have to do it for rifle brass. I get 20 loadings on 308W (semi-auto) brass and only trim once.

I shoot a lot of 38 Special and 9 mm in "belly guns" for defensive practice. I do keep track of the number of firings and get a minimum of 20 loadings before the mouths start to split. I have a standard load of 5.0 grains of Unique for those calibers. The brass is of numerous headstamps and I don't find much variance in OAL, to make me change my loading practices.

 

[Intheshop]

I've never trimmed straight wall handgun brass and have quite a few rigs accurate enough for it to show up "on paper".A scoped 8" Python being,sentimentally a favorite.

But,I may have to try it?

It does remind me though of an interesting tangent of sorts......We have a full-on cabinet/furniture shop.We also,and in most cases would rather be working on traditional archery bows(longbows/recurves) in there as well...,it depends on where the money is?Cart and the horse thing?

Have spent too much time on some wood working sites.It always has been an issue regarding accuracy WRT WW'ing.It usually ends up being a "no mas" discussion,meaning everybody goes in separate directions(corners).We build bows....most specifically lams(laminations)...with "tenths" indicators.Yeah,yeah,we got climate control and ALL the bells N whistles.This is our "normal".

So,now tripping on back into the cabinet shop,it's a natural for us to be using .001 indicators on our moulders/shapers/tablesaws.We do it here 'cause it is in fact the quickest way to set up the equipment.The "problem" is discussing this level of precision.Most WW'ers don't require it....which is fine.But you can make a case for it,being faster.

So it is with reloading case prep.What one guy deems easy,another sees as a waste of time?Just thinking out load?And was runnin some cab parts across some equipment this a.m. with a D.I. gaging the process.Back to regular programming....

 

[Winelover]

I'm in the "pick the right tool for the job", camp. In, other words, I choose the firearm for the distance I expect to encounter.

Handguns, with 2 1/12" to 3" barrels, for defensive purposes of 10 yards or less.

Handguns, with 6" barrels or longer, for 50 yards or less.

Carbines, in straight walled pistol cartridges, for 100 yards or less.

Center-fire rifles, for 100 yards or more.

I'm not about to limit my "toys" to 100 yard hand cannons. Have to justify the purchases some how.

 

[300BLK]

I don't recall EVER having trimmed 38Spl cases, and I've shot quite a lot of them. That isn't to say that maximum accuracy doesn't require trimming, but I'm not as OCD as Ian. A taper crimp die or Redding profile crimp die can help.

As for barrel lengths, I shot a 2-1/2" S&W M19 that would change your tune. It was quite accurate,and I could basically hit anything that I could see at 50 yards with it....back when I could see. I ran out of receiver sight for my Marlin 1894c at 300m, and I could literally just shoot 200m chicken silhouettes right down the line from a sitting (on the ground) position.

These days I'm most apt to be carrying that S&W M19 (rebarreled to 4") or a long gun of some variety depending upon the need.

 

[9.3X62AL]

K-frame S&W and I-frame Colt 38 Specials seem to be preter-naturally accurate. 2" Model 10 and 3" Model 13 examples have shot wonderfully for me, even at 50 yards and beyond I can soundly thrill an armed assailant with either tool. There was a time that 38 Special was the only round I could carry--duration of that silliness was nearly 10 years. I made the best of a bad sitch until 45 ACP got blessed, then 40 S&W a few years later.

 

[Ian]

Wow, so Rick and I are among the FEW who find it necessary to trim revolver brass?

 

[RBHarter]

I did all the 38 and 357s once I've done the Colts too . But they were never long enough to be close to bottomed or mouth headspaced . I will eventually do some for the Colts rifles sense they are both fat and long but at 1.305 for a Colts chamber that should be 1.290 I doubt that it will be an issue . 1x gets trimmed to 1.285 in 357 and 45 Colts but as a rule I don't crimp and only neck size . The 9mm has the head stamp pounded off most of the cases and they and the 40 and 45 are all still under maximum trim length .

 

[Chris]

Well, I am not a revolver guy. I make it a practice, no matter the caliber or weapon, to check brass length periodically and trim if necessary. All the reasons why this could be important have been spelled out many times. It's just maintenance and works toward our interests. Like changing the oil in your truck. It's up to you...

 

[gman]

Glad it worked out Ian.

 

[Ian]

Glad it worked out Ian.

Me too, thanks.

Anyone else remember shooting 473AA powder in handguns?

 

[gman]

Never used it myself. Wasn't that a shotgun powder?

 

[Ian]

I understand it was a 28-gauge powder. After working with it a bit I'm really sorry it was discontinued. The flakes are very small and it flows like water with zero tendency to clump, pack, or bridge. Burn rate seems to be very close to Titegroup and Red Dot. I imagine it doesn't have a flash deterrent and haven't shot any at night but in late evening I didn't notice any orange from the cylinder gap or muzzle. Currently am doing a test to see how it reacts with powder coated bullets in storage, hopefully it is less reactive than Titegroup and thus will be worry-free when stockpiling ammo.

 

[Ian]

I just checked the Reloader's Nest burn rate chart and they put 473AA right between AA#5 and HS5, or more broadly, equidistant from Unique and WW231. In .38 Special I rank it a bit higher because it starts to get snappy and hot before reaching the same velocity as Unique, yet grain for grain is very close to Titegroup. That might change with heavier bullets, remember I'm only running 125 grainers for these tests.

Looks like I really need to try this stuff in .45 ACP with 230-grain bullets. Off to check my rag of a Speer #11 for .45 data and see if I have any gaffer's tape left to put the covers back on.

 

[358156 hp]

I must confess. I'm partially guilty too. I don't trim the random blasting brass that I have for most handgun calibers, but I do trim straightwall cases like 357 & 44 mag for hunting loads, and I used to do it for IHMSA silhouette as well. I got "straightened out" by a mod on another board when the topic was "prepping handgun brass" for matches. I stated that I prep handgun brass for matches by:
Clean the cases thoroughly- I wet tumble
Inspect the cases, make sure the headstamps match, and sort cases by weight.
Size cases in a steel sizing die. Carbide sizers ofter squeeze the brass down too far.
Trim cases to uniform length, uniform the primer pockets & deburr flash holes. I prefer not to deburr the inside lip of handgun cases if it can be avoided.
Dry tumble the cases in walnut with mineral spirits & NuFinish.
If the stakes are really high, I only do the above with new, or once-fired cases from the same lot.

I got a rebuke for being off topic. Most of these steps are only performed on rifle cases. I know guys who do the same prep with 45 ACP brass for Bullseye shooting.

 

[9.3X62AL]

38 Special--357 Magnum--44 Magnum--9mm--40 S&W--45 ACP have never extended their length significantly for me, and none ever grow much after an initial trim to new or once-fired factory brass to even things up for the revolver brass. The straightwall stuff has been pretty well-behaved. I still test a sampling of every lot I reload, but no need so far.

Now, 32/20 and 44/40 brass--different story. It stretches every firing, and unevenly. Starline does it less so, but still does it. At handgun intensities, WW and RP brass in both calibers need a trim every third firing. SL gets about 5 before it gets a Forster Haircut.