From ignorance comes enlightenment

[Snakeoil]

Thanks guys. When things settle down here, I'll probably experiment with PC. My goals would be to find/create a simple and fool-proof process to coat the bullets and of course gain accuracy/consistency. I might be the first guy at the club to do this. I suspect it will be met with a mixed response. Some will reject it as new fangled, over complicated crapola that will not make the rifle shoot any better than it already does. Others will so a passing interest and one or two may be extremely curious and venture down a similar path. I think the responses will be dependent on where I place in the club shoots. If I clean their clocks, they will all get religion. If I don't they will simply point and laugh and ask me repeatedly how that PC is working out for me.

 

[Ian]

You doing this for you, or them? If you push on up to 2500 fps or so and use a heavier, pointed bullet with good BC you can buck the wind a lot better. My LR-308 has been turning in 5-shot groups well under MOA at 100 as long as the BHN is around 14. When my second batch of bullets aged out to 12, the groups opened up a little bit to just over 1 MOA. That's bumping over 2450 fps from an 18" barrel.

 

[Snakeoil]

I guess you'd have to belong to Wilton to understand my comments. A lot of good natured ribbing goes on at the club. And there are also a few stalwarts that don't believe in change or experimentation. Not really germane to this discussion, though. Sendaro will understand if he is reading this thread.

Reduced recoil is a added benefit to the lower velocities. I have a torn rotator in my shoulder.

 

[Ian]

I mention the higher velocities attainable in light of "to PC or not to PC" discussion because I haven't worked in the middle-range velocity spectrum much with PC nor have I gotten "impress your friends" groups using it compared to a well-put-together, traditionally lubed/gas checked bullet at moderate velocities. The coating can improve internal ballistic consistency dramatically if you match your powder to what the PC likes, however that hasn't translated to accuracy improvement yet from what I've seen. In other words, if you're shooting for best accuracy at moderate rifle velocities, I'm not sure yet that PC will be any advantage, and in fact may be a disadvantage.

 

[popper]

I've shot PC & HiTek from 1200 to 2700 fps, no problem at all (just 30 cal). PC or Hitek on 9 & 40 pistol. Feezing to 100F weather. I've also used LLA, Recluse, BLL and rapeseed oil. I did follow 'other' lube thread for a while. The rules for cast shooting with any lube still apply - fit, BHN and powder burn. PB or GCd. Coatings abrade some in the barrel, overcoat of BLL appears to keep the bore cleaner. HiTek for rifle is just too risky for me - too easy to make an error in application - it does work when all is right. So far I have not been able to 'prove' a failure due to PC.

 

[Hawk]

Also, be aware that some powders react with PC.
If your gas checking after PC, it shouldn't be an issue.
I don't know if it actually effects performance, but some of the newer powders do react and stick to the PC'ed bullets.
See post # 27 of this thread.

Powder for the 10MM

I'm using Randy's black powder. I really appreciate this!

www.artfulbullet.com

 

[fiver]

there are some other good ideas on the process itself scattered around the site here.
a couple of us have to stand their bullets up, or make sure any marks are out on the part of the nose that doesn't touch the barrel.

does that matter?
maybe and maybe not.
a lot of guys dump them on a wire rack, or just in a big pile then break them apart after cooking, and are happy with the results.

 

[Brad]

I ain’t got time for the stand em up thing. I hate fiddely stuff and that right there is fiddley.

 

[Snakeoil]

Yesterday I shot the Wilton BPCR Silhouette match with my '03 Spfld and my ooey-gooey Paul Matthews lube. I recently picked up a Lyman 48m rear sight for the rifle and wanted to shoot the event with iron sights. I also decided to shoot it offhand to boot. Quite a few guys are shooting that match offhand now.

I shot a 7 out of 40. Sounds dismal, but for an offhand score, I'm pretty pleased with the results. I hit 2 chickens at 200, 2 pigs at 300, 1 skinny turkey at 400 and 2 rams at 500. Given that the ram is roughly 2.5 minutes high in the body and 5 minutes high from tip of horn to bottom of foot and about 6.5 minutes wide from his butt to the tip of his nose, I'm rather tickled that I hit the ram twice offhand. With the exception of a few mirage driven flyers, I did a great job of outlining every damn target with bullets, none of which make and X on the scoresheet.

Mirage yesterday was some of the worst I'd seen at Wilton. Range is sand. Sky was blue. There was a slight breeze that would change on a regular basis. Mirage would go from light to moderate to heavy, L-R then suddenly change to R-L then boil then L-R, etc. When I was spotting I sounded like a sailor looking thru a periscope as a sub prepared to fire a torpedo in a WWII movie. We used Kentucky windage to counter the mirage or waited for the right condition before we'd break the shot. My one partner that shot prone did pretty well with is .40-65 Browning BPCR and BP. We actually had 2 shooters on our team because of an odd count of shooters, so I spotted for two at the same time. The other shooter is a nice guy, but a total newbie to this stuff. He's drinking thru the firehose during a shoot and does not practice in between matches. We're trying to bring him along, but he's struggling. He shot off the bench and went from two tightly spaced shots to a flyer 3 feet away and so forth. Part of it has to be his ammo. You'd all get a kick out of his ammo. He's shooting a .32-40 based on a Rolling Block with a new Douglas barrel. When it pulls the trigger the gun makes a pop like a CO2 pistol. You can see the round arcing thru the air like an artillery round and there is enough time to each a sandwich while you wait for it to reach the target at 500 yds. I'd love to put it over a chrono. But he's happy with it and he's under the tutelage of a member who is also a local gun shop owner and the smith that built the rifle. The shooter has some issue with his neck so I suspect recoil is an problem for him.

I may try to make a stiffer lube just for the convenience of handling. It was in the 80's on the range and Paul's lube does not melt in the heat. Maybe adding a little paraffin to his lube would stiffen it up enough to fix the gooey fingers problem. I have a design in mind for a heater for my sizer. I just have to make it.

 

[fiver]

make a small sample and wipe it on by hand then run it through the sizer to clean everything up.
keep on adding to the 2oz sample and watching the on target results.
I bet there are a couple of us here that are pretty pro at hand lubing little grooves and could probably get 3 different lubes in 3 different grooves [almost simultaneously] no problem.

 

[Ian]

Some of us can even do it with LBT soft and Speed Green not to mention some other microwax lubes that feel more like clear silicone than grease. Paraffin will stiffen the lube somewhat, de-tackify it some, and make it go liquid in the gun faster, but it won't add much heat tolerance since it melts at a lower temperature than Beeswax.

 

[Snakeoil]

Ahhh... thanks for the tip on paraffin. It was just a thought off the top of my head. I don't have enough time to be hand lubing bullets, going to the range and testing them. I can appreciate those that have the patience for that and suspect that the challenge of maximizing accuracy surpasses the actual shooting part for many. In a way, it is the same way with me for bikes. I find I enjoy wrenching just about as much as I enjoy flogging one thru the twisties. But once summer arrives, I try to spend every moment outside and I'm not ready to set my loading bench up in the back yard or on the lake front just yet.

 

[Brad]

I would add microwax, maybe with a melt point of 160° F or so. It not only reduces the gooey factor but raises the melt point AND adds a benefit I appreciate, it makes the lube “ring” stay together in the groove better. Mocrowax is flexible but also has a natural tack that makes it want to stay together. It bends and twists while paraffin cracks and breaks.

 

[Snakeoil]

Okay, microwax. I looked it up on the web and found it in various forms. There are different types it would appear, based upon the number assigned. Some is for wood finishing, some for wood turning, some that is priced like solid gold, etc.. Where do you buy the stuff and which one does one buy?

 

[Brad]

Look for a PM

 

[Snakeoil]

No specifics on type of microcrystalline wax? Are you guys just using what you can find? I guess I should check some of the suppliers to see what the offer. But I suspect it will be like spices in the market. The stuff to make meals from scratch is much smaller than the sections that sell meals/foods/baking kits ready to go. But still worth a look. Probably some info here in past threads, too.

 

[Brad]

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Mine is 430 or 431, I can’t remember.

 

[Ian]

No specifics on type of microcrystalline wax? Are you guys just using what you can find? I guess I should check some of the suppliers to see what the offer. But I suspect it will be like spices in the market. The stuff to make meals from scratch is much smaller than the sections that sell meals/foods/baking kits ready to go. But still worth a look. Probably some info here in past threads, too.

It's more like this: So you want to do one little thing to your lube, but you don't know much about the typical ingredients or why they're used. You set out to do some research, find after a month of nights reading the internet and some books you bought for the purpose that there's not a definitive list of what does what, everyone has their favorite, the best lube recipes are secret, and you're stuck. So you spend the next five years on a major fishing/hunting expedition and trying everything you can find and seeing what happens. After buying hundreds of dollars of ingredients and trying them all, staying up way too many nights thinking about it and wasting hundreds more on components and countless days at the range with a notebook, you finally figure out a few basic things by seeing some patterns emerge. Like add a little paraffin to de-tackify and firm up a lube that won't be used in extreme heat. Or add a little microwax in the 155-160° melt point range to add some adhesiveness and cohesiveness (and maybe calm the cold-bore flyers a bit, or it might make them worse depending on the other ingredients present). Don't get wrapped around the axle, just take the general advice given and try it. Statements like those made below are based on years of very hard-earned knowledge, not just casual observation.

Paraffin will stiffen the lube somewhat, de-tackify it some, and make it go liquid in the gun faster, but it won't add much heat tolerance since it melts at a lower temperature than Beeswax.

I would add microwax, maybe with a melt point of 160° F or so. It not only reduces the gooey factor but raises the melt point AND adds a benefit I appreciate, it makes the lube “ring” stay together in the groove better. Microwax is flexible but also has a natural tack that makes it want to stay together. It bends and twists while paraffin cracks and breaks.

This is how you try the above two recommendations out for yourself, which is about the shortest shortcut we can give you. The rest you'll have to work out on the range:

make a small sample and wipe it on by hand then run it through the sizer to clean everything up.
keep on adding to the 2oz sample and watching the on target results.

 

[fiver]

Ian isn't being a dick.
it's just how it is.
we started the whole conversation to start chasing the dragon by noting our temperature differences and the problems we were having at the opposite ends of the country.
then we worked on correcting those issues and trying to blend the ingredients that worked for each of us.
then we had to tweak the proportions to better suit our location.

what we really discovered was pretty much what was said above.
paraffin does this, bees-wax does that, micro-wax is some different than paraffin, this oil has this kind of flow properties and affects each of the waxes in different ways, yet still the same in general.

is there one ultimate works in everything lube?
well kind of but not really, they all have a problem somewhere in the system and the more you lean to fixing that problem the more you shift towards having a problem somewhere else along the line.

the best thing we can do really,, is fix the viscosity on a 3-4 part [play dough consistency] lube by adding some wax to control the oils better, changing the speed it flows under pressure, or getting it more/less slicker again.

 

[Ian]

Ian isn't being a dick.
it's just how it is.

Thank you, I'm certainly not trying to be, just throwing a wet blanket on detailitis before it gets overwhelming, 'cuz it will real quick and for not all that much benefit in the end.

The thing about waxes is there isn't much in the way of published specifications other than melt point, congeal point, and standard needle penetration tests. You won't find how narrow the fraction is, what the average molecular chain length is, the ratio of branched to unbranched carbon chains, and to make matters worse, many places like .com apothecaries technically mis-label their waxes sometimes. But it isn't all that critical really, most things called "microcrystalline wax" are going to be rubbery, stretchy, tacky, cohesive, and oil-absorbent/retentive. You can determine the physical characteristics best by noting oil content (if published) and melt point/congeal point, but you have to learn what those numbers really mean and that means getting a bunch of known samples and just feeling how they are, melting them, seeing how hard or soft they are at various temperatures, etc., so not really realistic. Melt point is good enough for our purposes. Most things called "paraffin wax" are brittle, lower melt point, harder and slicker to the touch, and won't absorb or retain as much oil. Most paraffins aren't pure and have a mix of branched stuff and who knows what oil content, rarely published. Go by melt point, 140F is typically a dry, brittle paraffin wax and 120 or less is like Gulf canning wax which is crumbly and oily. Beeswax is universally consistent a blend of natural waxes which are microcrystalline in nature, combined with a bunch of mono- and Di-ester waxes which are exceptional extreme-pressure lubricants.