HEAVY 9mm
- Thread starter Tomme boy
- Start date
jordanka16
Active Member
I regularly load 165gr bullets in 9mm for use in PC carbines suppressed. Lighter 147s can sometimes go supersonic in 16" barrels. I use titegroup, works perfect.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
True that. Ya gotta break eggs to make souffle.
I am as much (or more) an experimenter or tinkerer as anyone else here. Heavy-for-caliber bullets definitely have their place in the hobby, esp. with old-school lubed castings in rifles that have speed limits in place for a number of reasons. If pure recreation and curiosity fulfillment is your goal, have fun safely.
Where I draw the line is with calibers carried in harm's way, and with the FBI's insistence upon a 147 grain HP at 935-950 FPS being "More effective" than a 124 grain JHP @ 1250 FPS. That is a load of excrement, created to be sold to suits in executive conferences as The Next New Thing after 1986 Miami FBI debacle. A 9mm is just a high-capacity 38 Special loaded with the 147 grain sub-sonic rounds. Yes, this is a hot-button issue for me.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I am solidly in agreement with Al on this issue. If you are playing around with a handgun and punching holes in paper or ringing steel – use whatever safe loading you want.
However, when engaged in serious work, there are more important factors involved. I see little good cause to have a multitude of bullet weights on hand. I am a HUGE fan of simple logistics. I prefer to practice with the same bullet weight I use for serious work.
The 1986 Miami shooting was to the 1980’s what the Newhall shooting was to the 1970’s and the North Hollywood Bank robbery was to the 1990’s. All three events had profound effects on equipment and tactics, but the Miami event involved FBI agents. The aftermath of the Miami shootout was dramatically different from those other events because of the efforts to characterize the failures as ammunition failures and not tactical errors. Two FBI agents died, and 5 others were wounded in that event. I do not wish to speak negatively about those men that honorably performed their duty, but I have harsh words for their agency.
Very quickly after the event, there was an effort to label the failure to stop the bad guys the result of an ammunition failure. In particular, early in the gunfight, a single 9mm projectile had struck one of the criminals (Platt) in the right arm and continued into his chest. That projectile stopped just short of the heart. Platt continued to fight after receiving the wound and did considerable damage before he was ultimately stopped.
The FBI, apparently not wanting to accept blame for their own training and tactics, elected to make that one round the scapegoat. The ammunition testing regime that came out of that event wasn’t flawed but the outcome was very predictable. That round was deemed ineffective. A replacement needed to be “found” and that replacement couldn’t possibly be something that already existed. (if there was something better available – why wasn’t the FBI already using that better round?)
We ALL know what happened next. The 10mm was judged to best cartridge but it needed to be downloaded to tame the recoil (remember, the replacement round couldn’t be an existing cartridge or that would make the FBI appear to have been careless in their selection of ammunition). Once the downloaded 10mm was the winner, the new 40 S&W became the 10mm surrogate.
In the interim, the heavy 147gr 9mm projectile became the stopgap measure. Not the best option in my opinion.
Here we are 35 years later and the 124 grain, JHP 9mm is back in good graces. Isn’t it amazing how we went full circle?
I don’t think the ammunition testing protocols that came out of the Miami shootout were a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think the testing protocols were helpful. However, I also think those tests were designed to make absolutely certain the existing 9mm ammunition would fail to meet the criteria.
However, when engaged in serious work, there are more important factors involved. I see little good cause to have a multitude of bullet weights on hand. I am a HUGE fan of simple logistics. I prefer to practice with the same bullet weight I use for serious work.
The 1986 Miami shooting was to the 1980’s what the Newhall shooting was to the 1970’s and the North Hollywood Bank robbery was to the 1990’s. All three events had profound effects on equipment and tactics, but the Miami event involved FBI agents. The aftermath of the Miami shootout was dramatically different from those other events because of the efforts to characterize the failures as ammunition failures and not tactical errors. Two FBI agents died, and 5 others were wounded in that event. I do not wish to speak negatively about those men that honorably performed their duty, but I have harsh words for their agency.
Very quickly after the event, there was an effort to label the failure to stop the bad guys the result of an ammunition failure. In particular, early in the gunfight, a single 9mm projectile had struck one of the criminals (Platt) in the right arm and continued into his chest. That projectile stopped just short of the heart. Platt continued to fight after receiving the wound and did considerable damage before he was ultimately stopped.
The FBI, apparently not wanting to accept blame for their own training and tactics, elected to make that one round the scapegoat. The ammunition testing regime that came out of that event wasn’t flawed but the outcome was very predictable. That round was deemed ineffective. A replacement needed to be “found” and that replacement couldn’t possibly be something that already existed. (if there was something better available – why wasn’t the FBI already using that better round?)
We ALL know what happened next. The 10mm was judged to best cartridge but it needed to be downloaded to tame the recoil (remember, the replacement round couldn’t be an existing cartridge or that would make the FBI appear to have been careless in their selection of ammunition). Once the downloaded 10mm was the winner, the new 40 S&W became the 10mm surrogate.
In the interim, the heavy 147gr 9mm projectile became the stopgap measure. Not the best option in my opinion.
Here we are 35 years later and the 124 grain, JHP 9mm is back in good graces. Isn’t it amazing how we went full circle?
I don’t think the ammunition testing protocols that came out of the Miami shootout were a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I think the testing protocols were helpful. However, I also think those tests were designed to make absolutely certain the existing 9mm ammunition would fail to meet the criteria.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Jello shooters in lab coats THAT DON'T GET SHOT AT FOR A LIVING need to stay in their lane.
IIRC, FBI's issued 9mm round during the time Miami occurred was the Winchester Silvertip 115 grain JHP. In mid-1987 when my shop added 9mm and 45 ACP, "state of the art" was the Winchester Silvertip in both calibers. I had a S&W 459 that I used at work back then, and factory rounds clocked in the 1200-1215 FPS ZIP Code. Not many of us carried 9mm back then, but I worked alone much of the time while in long hair and soft clothes; in those circs, lots of bullets before the slide locks back make sense. FBI's assertions that the W-W ST was inadequate were and are BS.
IIRC, FBI's issued 9mm round during the time Miami occurred was the Winchester Silvertip 115 grain JHP. In mid-1987 when my shop added 9mm and 45 ACP, "state of the art" was the Winchester Silvertip in both calibers. I had a S&W 459 that I used at work back then, and factory rounds clocked in the 1200-1215 FPS ZIP Code. Not many of us carried 9mm back then, but I worked alone much of the time while in long hair and soft clothes; in those circs, lots of bullets before the slide locks back make sense. FBI's assertions that the W-W ST was inadequate were and are BS.
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L Ross
Well-Known Member
I had a comment, then I remembered we usually have more guests viewing these threads and posts than we do members.
With cast, fit is king. When actually using ammo for its intended purpose, placement is king.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I can provide an anecdotal account that will support or disgrace any topic; that proves nothing.
Show me large amounts of data collected over long periods of time and I’ll start to pay attention.
No offense but a single account of anything can be an aberration.
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358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
To expand on this a bit, Elmer went through a phase where he was trying to develop a workable load for 45 Colt SAAs using a 300 gr 45-90(?) bullet, sized down to .454 IIRC. The resulting loads eventually (ahem) decommissioned several revolvers. These results, back in the 1920s, let Elmer away from 45 Colt and to 38-40, then the newish 44 Spl because the chamber walls of the cylinders were thicker. When the 44 magnum was introduced, Elmer dropped his hot-loaded 44 Spl and went straight into 44 mag, and never looked back. Hot loaded 45 Colts didn't become practical until Bill Ruger made it practical. Then came Dick Casull, and so on and so forth.
Paul Gauthier
Active Member
I played with a heavy 9mm back when the 147 grn. was the end all, be all of everything 9mm. Personally I thought they sucked, went right on using 124's or thereabouts, I have a mold from NOE that is 135 ish, that is just awesome in my 357, I have loaded some in 9mm but have not shot them yet. Suppose I ought to get to it since I loaded them about 6 months ago. Even that I think will be too heavy in a nine, for me at least, I prefer speed over weight.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
When you choose a defensive sidearm caliber, there are LOTS of trade-offs. You are starting off with a "compomise", between portability and projectible energy. I think you need to "Play to a caliber's strengths". All of the 35 Caliber pistol rounds do better work when the bullet starts at 1200 FPS+. Once the bullet's caliber gets to 0.400", things change--with good hits, the 40 S&W and 45 ACP are decisive in stopping armed depredations, and most loads in both calibers run at or under 1000 FPS. This isn't rocket science--no need for slide rules and gel blocks. Unschooled & illiterate mountain men during the fur trade era knew from collective life experiences that a 54 caliber round ball was far more effective vs. grizbears than was a 36 caliber ball.
There are a number of predictive formulae "out there" that attempt to assess relative stopping power of the various calibers. Their computations depend upon some value of the ballistic equation being "squared" to arrive at conclusions about the caliber's relative merits--bullet velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. I have always favored the Hatcher Index Of Relative Stopping Power for making these predictions, for these reasons--
1) IRSP squares the value of a ballistic element that empirically squares itself organically--bullet diameter.
2) IRSP calculates the bullet's mass rather than its static weight as a variable within the formula.
3) IRSP includes a "Shape factor", but assumes that no bullet expansion occurs as that bullet traverses an animated target. That is to be expected, IRSP was birthed in the context of service ammunition subscribing to the Hague Conventions, which mandates non-expanding projectiles for anti-personnel usage. Given my experiences in trauma rooms and autopsy suites with recovered projectiles, my belief remains that reliance upon bullet expansion with a bullet driven at pistol velocities is an unwise gamble; assuming that a bullet's original diameter will be "As good as it gets" is a much safer bet.
Of course, this spiel has NOTHING to do with recreational hobby interest in seeing JUST WHAT WE CAN GET AWAY WITH SAFELY at the reloading bench. Please forgive my rather strident consciousness-raisings that appear on these pages concerning exchanges of finality with predators.
There are a number of predictive formulae "out there" that attempt to assess relative stopping power of the various calibers. Their computations depend upon some value of the ballistic equation being "squared" to arrive at conclusions about the caliber's relative merits--bullet velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. I have always favored the Hatcher Index Of Relative Stopping Power for making these predictions, for these reasons--
1) IRSP squares the value of a ballistic element that empirically squares itself organically--bullet diameter.
2) IRSP calculates the bullet's mass rather than its static weight as a variable within the formula.
3) IRSP includes a "Shape factor", but assumes that no bullet expansion occurs as that bullet traverses an animated target. That is to be expected, IRSP was birthed in the context of service ammunition subscribing to the Hague Conventions, which mandates non-expanding projectiles for anti-personnel usage. Given my experiences in trauma rooms and autopsy suites with recovered projectiles, my belief remains that reliance upon bullet expansion with a bullet driven at pistol velocities is an unwise gamble; assuming that a bullet's original diameter will be "As good as it gets" is a much safer bet.
Of course, this spiel has NOTHING to do with recreational hobby interest in seeing JUST WHAT WE CAN GET AWAY WITH SAFELY at the reloading bench. Please forgive my rather strident consciousness-raisings that appear on these pages concerning exchanges of finality with predators.
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P&P, no offense taken. Posted the LEO body cam shots a couple years ago? Guy (T shirt) with big knife charges cop who shoots ~ 10', guy falls down, then gets up, charges again, stabs cop and makes it another ~20' before the other LEOs put him down. More recently, LEO shots several times, perp lays down and talks 30 or so sec. before expiring. 45 ACP make a difference? Don't think so. It DOESN'T blow your arm off! Then there is the church single shot take down. My take, minimum, if I get a hit the perp goes to the hospital. Anything else is a bonus.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Ever see anyone take a slap to the melon with a Mag-Lite and continue the fight? Me neither. So where should we be directing our shots?