HEAVY 9mm

RBHarter

West Central AR
Having recently had my bells rung with a cast iron frying pan I can attest that all it did was serve to further enhance my already excited state of being . I don't expect short of bleeding ears less than a 4 maybe 6 D mag lite would have a much different result .

Bigger holes mean bigger leaks , broken ribs will take the fight out of a guy too .
Of course none of it means anything without tissue disruption .

I toyed with the Taylor KO (TKO) formula for long enough to find that with enough math the best laid out loads are completely counter intuitive .
I gave up and reverted to energy available for transfer plied with the bigger the flat the bigger the splash .

An Olympic diver strives to make as little splash as possible and at 6'3" , 200# and a 34" chest and hip it's easier than you'd think . The construction guy 5'10" #200 that wears an 18-1/2 - 36 long shirt doesn't dive he cannon balls .
Then there's the over weight office guy at 5-6 and 200# that wants to dive but belly flops .......... 30 , 35 , 45 cal visualized at the pool . Kind of a 30-30 , 357 , 45 Colts sort of a picture .

Confidence and skill play a roll too .

There are too many variables involved to conclude a clear definitive answer that will hold up 75% of the time . I have seen game hit exactly right with perfect channels go 2-300 yd and the next hit almost identically just collapse in a heap . I saw a deer hit once with a softball exit hole and a dime entry from an 06' just stand there for what seemed like about 10 minutes at the time but in fact wasn't much over 90 seconds . A 2nd shot would have been pointless the little bit of vitals left in the cavity were something between jello and goo . Ultimately it was a matter of disconnecting the CNS that made it clean . The deer wasn't excited or alarmed at the shot just grazing on its way to water . I've shot 3 more similar ranges same rifle an load , same shot just behind or quartering through the shoulders , and all were down in 1 bound or less .

i don't know what any of it means .
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
I shot a doe at 5 feet with a 3" Bri sabot in 12ga. It ran off and we did not find it for several days later. Coyote had got it. But there was a nice in the size of the sabot still together. One small exit. So the sabot stayed inside. It was in a straight line about 500 yds across a bean field. Under a log jam that was in the timber from a flood.

Then I had a little 4 pointer walk across me at 10 yards. 50 cal. muzzle loader with a 240gr 44 xtp hornady in a sabot. It went 1 step fell over and blood was spraying 2-3 feet out of the chest. Bullet never went through and could not find it. The whole chest cavity was like a bomb went off. It was a mess. Fragments went into the stomach. And it was eating very well in the corn field. I swear I can smell it typing this.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Internal ballistic and external ballistics are "hard" sciences, once the variables are dealt with (air temp, air density, wind direction, shot angle up or down). Terminal ballistics is at best a vaguely-understood art form, and every shot taken at an animated target is a gamble and a calculated risk. This is why LE trains its people to make double-taps and "failure drills" (Mozambiques) to enhance the chances of stopping exchanges of finality commenced by two-legged predators.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
In a rather pathetic effort to drag this back to a vague resemblance of where we started ...........

I found long ago that the 38 short was close to the 9mm in case length and if magazines will accommodate OAL that data might be a good place to start for "heavies" . It was loaded with a 200 gr RN at one time as a 38 New Police and 38/200 . With a tapered size die a 165 gr WC could be functionally a WFN Lovern bullet . There is almost certainly a 180 Ogival WC (I'm visualizing a slightly longer nose on a 358-158 RNFP) design that would fit as a hot loaded +P+ 38 short . It's just 20 gr off the nose of the 358-200 . Right ? With the new moulds a guy might even just mill the bottom off and make a flat plate or a nose pour . It's just a $25 test ?
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
Were those 38 new police loaded with a solid copper or brass 200 gr bullet. I got so e in a trade one time. Shot them out of a 38 special and the recoil was very stought. I never weighed one but the bullet was very long.

I am going to try this with the 180gr. I just have to cast a few to try.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I never thought about the 180,,, I keep forgetting I have a 180gr. truncated nose plain base mold.
I usually make up about a thousand at a time and use them for cores in 40 short cases to make 44 mag bullets.
which means I likely have a box of them here somewhere.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
Were those 38 new police loaded with a solid copper or brass 200 gr bullet. I got so e in a trade one time. Shot them out of a 38 special and the recoil was very stought. I never weighed one but the bullet was very long.

I am going to try this with the 180gr. I just have to cast a few to try.
Tommie I have a copy if this bullet in a NOE 200 RN as well as the old Lyman mold. If you would like some.
CW
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
For the 38/200 folks--I don't run my 38/200 loads in the small-frame 38 S&Ws I have here, just in the S&W M&P and the Webley-Enfield. These loads are a step up from the "146 grain RN @ 700 FPS" typical of the caliber. I use the NEI #169A (202 grains) atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. Velocity is 625-640 FPS, and both recoil and impact on steel targets at 25 yards are a bit more vigorous than you would expect from these sedate velocities. When Bruce Bannister was still alive, he looked at me kinda funny when I talked about reloading these rounds. He said that Canadian police used the revolvers and the 38/200 ammo for several years after WWII, and they despised the combo. It had the annoying habit of glancing off auto glass with even the slightest angle and failing to penetrate said glass. FWIW.
 
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358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
Long ago I had a pre-war S&W Commercial Hand Ejector in 38 S&W, It was my first centerfire revolver, and I reloaded for it with a LEE Loader, which is still around here somewhere. My load was something like 2.1 gr of Red Dot with a 158 .358 bullet. Accuracy was okay, nothing special because of the undersize bullet which I had no knowledge of. It was lots of fun in those innocent days. Velocity couldn't have been much above air gun velocities. I learned early on not to shoot anything really hard with it, the bullets would bounce back. One day I fired a full cylinder full into a tree with my "serious" load. 2.1 gr of Red Dot with a Hornady HB wadcutter. When I walked up to the tree I could see my cluster of 6 shots, two of the bullets buried themselves in the tree bark about a quarter inch or so. The rest were laying on the ground in front of the tree is reloadable condition. With my next paycheck I bought a new Ruger Security Six, and that put an end to that nonsense.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
For the 38/200 folks--I don't run my 38/200 loads in the small-frame 38 S&Ws I have here, just in the S&W M&P and the Webley-Enfield. These loads are a step up from the "146 grain RN @ 700 FPS" typical of the caliber. I use the NEI #169A (202 grains) atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. Velocity is 625-640 FPS, and both recoil and impact on steel targets at 25 yards are a bit more vigorous than you would expect from these sedate velocities. When Bruce Bannister was still alive, he looked at me kinda funny when I talked about reloading these rounds. He said that Canadian police used the revolvers and the 38/200 ammo for several years after WWII, and they despised the combo. It had the annoying habit of glancing off auto glass with even the slightest angle and failing to penetrate said glass. FWIW.
Halt! Or I'll scratch your paint!
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
In a 9mm, you have a lot more pressure margin-of-safety than you do in a 38 S&W. Just be careful about powder space--pressures climb fast when you start cramping things.