Home sick so I cast a few bullets

[Joshua]

I got a head cold last week. Sore throat, congestion, chills the first night, no big deal. My wife is high risk however, so I went and got tested for Covid-19. My work also strongly suggested that I be tested. It’s been six days waiting for results. I don’t feel sick anymore, but I can’t go back to work until I get test results back, that’s my work’s policy.

So I’ve been casting, and powder coating some bullets, while I wait.

Left Row are cast out of Lyman #2 and PC’d with Eastwood clear gloss, air cooled, from the top:
NOE 316-155 GC
Lyman 311041 GC
Lyman 311290 w/ copper GC
Lyman 311290 w/ aluminum 8mm GC
Lee 312-155-2r GC
NOE 316-155 PB

On the right are some more that I cast tonight:
Lyman 311290
Lee 312-155-2r

I mixed 1/3 pot Lyman #2, with a big chunk a soft sail boat keel, and four pounds of range scrap. “Mystery Metal”!

I did plug some numbers into the excel lead calculator, assuming the keel is pure then, tin is around 1.5% and antimony is around 1.7%. I will be water dropping these after powder coating.

The Lee six cavity had bullets sticking in the left block on Saturday(first session with this mold). Before I started casting this evening that side got a second aggressive scrubbing with water, a toothbrush, and Bartenders Friend. This seems to have done the trick, burrs are gone, edges of cavities very slightly rounded over, bullets are dropping with a few light taps.

I smoked this mold with a paint stir stick. I only smoke them when they are new. They don’t seem to need it during subsequent casting sessions.

I also made a short video showing how I cast. I’ve got to figure out how to get it linked up here.

I have loaded up some batches of these new bullets already. I want to go faster. Right now the goal is 1800-2000 fps. Then keep pushing faster until accuracy fails. Up till now 16 grains of 2400 was the hottest load I had tried.

I have 2400 and H4895 to play with. I‘ve read and searched a lot. In both the 30-06 and the 7.7x58mm I went with 20 grains of 2400. I’m still figuring out what I want to try with the H4895. I did impulsively load up ten 30-06 with the 311290 over 34.5 grains of H4895, this is 4.5grs below a starting jacketed load, and well above 60% of the max load. I will be loading up a ladder for that load starting at 30grs and stopping at the 34.5grs I already loaded. I don’t want to use filler. So we will see how these do. The 34.5gr load may end up shooting more of a pattern than a group.

Well that’s all folks!
Josh

 

[Ian]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one up at three in the morning getting stuff done. Been working at the lathe since 10:30, it finally cooled off to 78 outside, still about 85 in the shop. Hoping your test comes back negative.

 

[Joshua]

My casting style

 

[Joshua]

Ian,

It’s 1:30 here. Time to hit the hay!

I think it was just a head cold. I hope it ain’t the crud!

What did you make on the Lathe?

Josh

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Morning JOSH,

I shoulda started the pot last night for all the sleep I got... GRRR

I would be weary of cooling the spure as you doin' your video. Its a very real worry of warping a mold. The spure cools plenty fast on its own and if it dosent SLOW YOUR ROLL. Maybe use two molds to keep your pace up but spread the cooling time.


Have fun!

CW

 

[Joshua]

I haven’t had any problems with warpage.

What I was having problems with was torn out holes on the bottom of my bullets. I read BruceB’s article on “speed casting” and never looked back. By cooling the sprue for two or three seconds the cuts are perfect. My Lee 358-148-TL six cavity wadcutter mold has cast a full Folgers can worth of bullets, using this technique, with no ill effect.

Now brass molds can warp from too much heat. I don’t own any brass molds.

I do cast with two molds; but not back and forth every other pour. I don’t like to put down the mold. I only switch molds when my bullets get too frosty. The hot mold then goes back into the panini press that I use for preheating, to chill out. I switch my catch boxes, and then start using the other mold.

I got to this point by trial and error, and a lot of reading. I like casting fast. Until I warp something I probably won’t change. It’s working for me.

Josh

 

[Ian]

Another way is turn down your furnace and get a manicurist's fan set up to cool the sprues.

 

[fiver]

hhint for fast bullet speeds.
slow your launch speed down, and flatten the pressure curve.

 

[Joshua]

I cast outside, under my deck. I don’t have a dedicated indoor area. And, it rains here a lot. In the winter between life responsibilities and weather I sometimes have to wait for weeks to try out a new mold.

In fact it’s raining right now, and I just had to run outside and pull in my pot.

So, when I cast there is a sense of urgency. I want to get as much done as possible. So I have drifted toward hotter pot temps and sprue quenching. I do adjust the knob on my pot. I try to stay within a range, hot enough for good fill out, yet cool enough to avoid super frosty bullets.

I don’t mean to be defensive. I’m open to change, but I am also proud of where I have gotten to with my casting. I bought my first mold only 18 months ago. They sure multiply fast, I just counted, I’m up to 21 molds. It would have been 23 but I have sold off two of them.

Josh

 

[Ian]

hot enough for good fill out, yet cool enough to avoid super frosty bullets.

These things are a factor of mould temperature, not alloy temperature. The steepest part of the learning curve for a beginner is discovering and understanding (if they ever do) the difference. Frost is a factor of hot mould and antimony in the alloy. Good fillout is a factor of the mould being not too cold (plus venting, pour stream volume, clean mould) and to a much smaller degree alloy fluidity (temperature and tin content). A good rule of thumb is to run the alloy at about 100 to 150 degrees above the temperature where it first becomes fully liquid. Favor the top end if you have less than 1% tin, and if casting pure-ish lead go ahead and crank the alloy temperature a couple hundred degrees above its melt point for your best chance at sharp edges. The rest is up to the timing and pace of your casting rhythm to get and keep the various parts of the mould at the temperature it likes.

All this is not to criticize, but to help you in the long run. As long as you can make something that looks like a bullet, has a sharp base edge, and is the right size, it will work fine for most pistol and "low node" shooting. However, when you start to push things fast in rifles, you will quickly learn that if you get over-exuberant with some techniques like sprue quenching and running the alloy too hot, doing so can cause problems like shrunken bullet syndrome, foamy bases (internally where you can't see it), coring, and other irregularities that show up on target. If you have to wait five more seconds per pour to let the base finish drawing from the sprue and normalize, it can make a big difference to quality in ways you may not yet realize. Most of us here had to learn this the hard way and it took years if not decades. Then the internet happened and learning curves can be shortened (or lengthened, depending on who you listen to) by an order of magnitude.

BUT............as an old friend of ours was fond of saying: "It only matters if it does", so YOU do what you're comfortable doing and only worry about changing up anything if you think you need to.

 

[Joshua]

Fiver,

The 2400 is too fast for what I want to do. The H-4895 needs fillers to get better accuracy. So I need a slower bulkier powder.

I’ve been spending a lot of time looking at different powders. My interest in Shooters World Precision and it’s similarity to Varget has been part of this search.

I want a powder that will work in the larger volume 30-06 and the smaller volume 7.7x58mm. I want it to be position insensitive. Work with a wide range of bullet weights, from 155gr up to 210gr. Be really cheap. Available locally in eight pounders. And, if this isn’t asking for too much, I would like this powder to smell like vanilla and happiness.

But in all seriousness is there a powder that has worked well for you guys in these calibers? The 7.7x58mm has a capacity similar to that of the .303 British and the 30-40 Krag. So a good powder for going faster, 2000 to 2400fps, in mid-sized .30 cal milsurps and the larger 30-06?

And down another rabbit hole. I know that these powders will only work under heavy bullets in my 30-06, unless I use a duplex load. But I can’t stop looking at WC860, WC867, and WC870! There is a guy up in Bellingham, near where my Dad lives, who has some WC860 listed for $6 a pound.

Josh

 

[Rick]

These things are a factor of mould temperature, not alloy temperature. The steepest part of the learning curve for a beginner is discovering and understanding (if they ever do) the difference. Frost is a factor of hot mould and antimony in the alloy. Good fillout is a factor of the mould being not too cold (plus venting, pour stream volume, clean mould) and to a much smaller degree alloy fluidity (temperature and tin content). A good rule of thumb is to run the alloy at about 100 to 150 degrees above the temperature where it first becomes fully liquid. Favor the top end if you have less than 1% tin, and if casting pure-ish lead go ahead and crank the alloy temperature a couple hundred degrees above its melt point for your best chance at sharp edges. The rest is up to the timing and pace of your casting rhythm to get and keep the various parts of the mould at the temperature it likes.

************** Yep . . . .

 

[Joshua]

Mold temp vs pot temp. This makes sence to me. It’s why swapping between molds every ten or so pours reduces the frosting. I guess in a rough, broadly fluctuating kinda way, I was already working around mold temp swings.

I’ve seen you use this quote often, "It only matters if it does". I thought it came from Felix, but turns out it doesn’t.

As I go further down this “Go Fast” road. I will most likely have to slow down my casting speed and buy a thermometer for my pot. With my casting operation being mobile, and sometimes exposured to the elements for days at a time a PID setup seems to delicate, and cumbersome.

I thought that my weird ladle was gonna get more attention !

Josh

 

[462]

Took my quite a while before I learned the importance of mould temperature over that of the alloy.

Then, too, there are the quirks of individual moulds. Case in point: I recently bought a single-cavity 454190, from Brad, and it likes to run real hot. So hot, in fact, that it's difficult to cast fast enough, so a 25-degree increase in alloy temperature becomes an aid.

 

[fiver]

since we are discussing fast, let's start at the beginning.
the very first thing is to find the center of the barrel, then the outer edges of the throat and leade.
the shape and support of the bullet will decide the speed as much as the interior of the alloy.
[harder isn't always better but the bullet needs to not be doing weird stuff when it gets slapped in the ass]
your goal is to get the bullet from the pot to the target with as little damage or shape changing as possible.
this included base riveting, odd size changes in the size die, scuffing when chambering, or altering the bullet when engraving it.
you can't get there with a perfectly pristine bullet, it just isn't possible.
one of the main key's is to make sure the damage is consistent, minimal, and doesn't change the balance.

 

[Ian]

@Joshua , print the above out and tape it to the wall in front of your reloading bench, or somewhere you can ponder it while sitting on the throne. If ever there was a "secret" to shooting cast bullets effectively at high velocity, it's in those paragraphs.

 

[Joshua]

Well here is a step in the right direction. If I’m honest, I have only slugged my guns. So I did my first pound cast tonight.



This pound cast failed to stay together however. You can see where the casting started to separate from the brass. There is still useful topography to measure.

I know that I’ve got a lot to learn from you guys. I am grateful for all the advice.

I got my COVID-19 test results back, they were negative. So off to bed. I’ve got to be up early tomorrow. I’ll measure this casting tomorrow.

Thank again,
Josh

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

We stop or cease to learn for two reasons. Choice and Death.

Glad what you do and how your doing it is working for you.

CW

 

[Brother_Love]

Josh,
This has been a great thread and I have read it all 3 times it so interesting. I do have a question about your ladle, what kind is it?
Thanks,
Malcolm

 

[popper]

Looks like the P.C. just pulled out of the case a bit so most info you need is still there. Short freebore, short ball seat and rifling starts pretty fast - 06? 2400 & H4895 should do well but ARcomp is very temp insensitive, works very well in my 308W. I started H4895 with light (25ish loads) in 30/30, no filler needed. Actually went down to 20 accuracy was great, fps stunk (1100?). I gave up on ladder testing a few years back, found a slightly above middle Hodgdon book (335,varget,Lvr,4895,ARcomp, 4227, Rx7 etc.) loads did great for cast in all my rifles. I did try dacron filler in 30/30 with unique, 4895 in 308, unique helped a bit, not 4895.