Home sick so I cast a few bullets

[Rockydoc]

In 1961 I bought 50 lbs of 4831 from Hodgdons. It came in a sheet metal wooden framed box that it had been delivered to the Govt. in. That box must have held 250lbs when full, the 50lbs didn't even fill it halfway.

 

[Joshua]

never ever walk past cheap powder unless it's something that doesn't have any sort of label or only comes in 8 oz's.

Well I went back today and bought another batch of powder.
I got the three 500 gram tins of the Norma Magnum, three tins of H414, and a partial can of both Win 760 and Win 748. So seven plus pounds for 60 bucks.
Not sure how I’m gonna use the ball powder. We will figure that out later!
Josh

 

[Ian]

H414 and WW760 used to be real close and have for a few years in fact been the exact same powder. I find them very very useful in both .308 and 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. WW748 is goofy in cold weather but it is one of my top .30-30 powders with cast or jax. If Norma Magnum is similar or same as RX-22 there are plenty of uses for that, too.

 

[fiver]

I think MRP is closer to AA-3100.
748 is good in the 223 loaded to full tilt too, and I hear it works okay in the 308.

 

[Joshua]

The Norma Magnum Rifle Powder is product number 93215, original price on can was $9.25. The seal is still intact on this tin.

The H-414 is lot number 68ADDC, I’m assuming that is a 1968 lot number. Original price $2.75.

Bullseye original price $8.00.

The Win 748 and Win 760 appear to be the same vintage. Original price on the 748 is $3.75.

I found this quote on another forum.
“Guns & Ammo Dec. 2013 said MRP and RL22 were the same.
They also listed other Norma powders as the same as RL powders.
HS-6 = Win 540
HS-7 = Win 571
H110 = Win 296 & Alliant MP300
H414 = Win 760
RL22 = Norma MRP
RL19 = Norma 204
RL15 = Norma 203
RL25 = MRP2“

I have found multiple references to MRP and Reloder 22 being the same powder. Others argue that they are not the same powder; the rationale for their argument appears to focus on differences in both pressure and velocity between the two powders (most likely lot to lot variations).

Josh

P.s. I’m not crazy for wanting to buy more guns because I have brass for them, or ten dollars of surplus vintage powder that might work well in those calibers?

 

[fiver]

nope.
I spent 1200 bucks on a swage die set because I found a handful of empty cases on the ground I could turn into bullets.

 

[Ian]

yeah, it's time to introduce Josh to Geargnasher's Rules.


Gear’s rules (updated version):
#1 You will drop 87 out of 100 live primers on the carpet but not spill a drop while pouring a cup of coffee over the sink.
#2 Improve our national marital statistics: Stay out of your wife's kitchen with gun stuff.
#3 Just because others couldn't do it doesn’t mean you will. Think about it.
#4 The mould will finally start dropping perfect bullets five minutes before you are called to supper.
#5 Don’t argue with stupid people. Have interesting discussions with intelligent people who happen to have a different point of view.
#6 Properly stored ammo and components don't spoil, eat, or increase your rent. So stock up before the panic-buyers do.
#7 It's true that straight wheel weights will ruin your barrel. They have to be made into bullets first.
#8 Hodgdon will discontinue the only powder that ever produced good groups from your favorite firearm.
#9 Murphy was an optimist, so always wear appropriate PPE.
#10 Beware the loose nut on the front side of someone else’s reloading press.
#11 Picking up and hoarding all that free range brass in calibers you don't own will eventually cost you a lot of money.
#12 Your best groups will be made on the day you have no witnesses, no camera, and it rains on your targets.
#13 Casting bullets and handloading will in fact never save you any money. However, you will shoot more for the same dollar and will spend less money on booze....unless you happen to own a Swedish Mauser.

 

[Joshua]

yeah, it's time to introduce Josh to Geargnasher's Rules.


Gear’s rules (updated version):
#1 You will drop 87 out of 100 live primers on the carpet but not spill a drop while pouring a cup of coffee over the sink.
#2 Improve our national marital statistics: Stay out of your wife's kitchen with gun stuff.
#3 Just because others couldn't do it doesn’t mean you will. Think about it.
#4 The mould will finally start dropping perfect bullets five minutes before you are called to supper.
#5 Don’t argue with stupid people. Have interesting discussions with intelligent people who happen to have a different point of view.
#6 Properly stored ammo and components don't spoil, eat, or increase your rent. So stock up before the panic-buyers do.
#7 It's true that straight wheel weights will ruin your barrel. They have to be made into bullets first.
#8 Hodgdon will discontinue the only powder that ever produced good groups from your favorite firearm.
#9 Murphy was an optimist, so always wear appropriate PPE.
#10 Beware the loose nut on the front side of someone else’s reloading press.
#11 Picking up and hoarding all that free range brass in calibers you don't own will eventually cost you a lot of money.
#12 Your best groups will be made on the day you have no witnesses, no camera, and it rains on your targets.
#13 Casting bullets and handloading will in fact never save you any money. However, you will shoot more for the same dollar and will spend less money on booze....unless you happen to own a Swedish Mauser.

Powerful stuff! Oh, what a good laugh! All so very true.

I love this quote by Sid Caesar.

“Comedy has to be based on truth. You take the truth and you put a little curlicue at the end.“
Sid Caesar

 

[Spindrift]

Nice find, Joshua!
By the way, you can find jacketed data for your Norma powder here, along with a powder burn chart that is quite interesting, as it contains information about both the relative burning velocity and pressure.

Reloading Data | Data for handloading with every caliber

NORMA wants to contribute to development and therefor we share approved reloading data for handloading with every caliber. Learn more about hand loading here!

www.norma-ammunition.com

The Norma powders are very lot-to-lot consistent, I would use old powder with new data without worries.

 

[Joshua]

Thanks Spindrift,

That’s an interesting chart. I like their methodology. One case, one charge weight, and the same bullet. Now here’s the velocity and pressure.

Josh

 

[Joshua]

I got out and shot the rest of the 312-155-2r H4895 ladder. I started back up at 34 grains and stopped at 38 grains.


Target #2
312-155-2r, PC w/ GC, 34gr H4895, DEN 43, OAL 3.175”, Five Shot Group at 50 yards 2 13/16”
I think that I pulled the first shot. The next four are at one inch w/ three touching each other.

Target #3
312-155-2r, PC w/ GC, 35gr H4895, DEN 43, OAL 3.175”, Five Shot Group at 50 yards 1 3/4”

Target #4
312-155-2r, PC w/ GC, 36gr H4895, DEN 43, OAL 3.175”, Five Shot Group at 50 yards 1 3/4”

Target #6
312-155-2r, PC w/ GC, 37gr H4895, DEN 43, OAL 3.175”, Five Shot Group at 50 yards 4 13/16”

Target #8
312-155-2r, PC w/ GC, 38gr H4895, DEN 43, OAL 3.175”, Five Shot Group at 50 yards 7 7/16”

Time to go to sleep.
Josh

 

[Spindrift]

Lots of good info in those groups! I would hang around the 35-35,5-36 grs region a bit, and play with the details (Col, +/- crimp etc). Or just shoot and enjoy it, good progress!

 

[L Ross]

Thanks for sharing Josh, good information. Do you have any idea of what you are getting for velocity?

 

[fiver]

lookin good, lookin good, aaand we just exceeded something in the system.
that's when you drop back and shift gears.

 

[Ian]

Josh, I'd start around 30 and go to maybe 38 or 40. It should start coming together around 31-32 as the powder begins to start making enough pressure to burn well and hold out for, well, we don't know how much more? It is helpful to see how the coating affects the burn speed and how a long workup from below ideal pressure for the powder through several barrel nodes and gradual increase affects your groups on paper.

Now we know how much more with that combination.

 

[Joshua]

Thanks for sharing Josh, good information. Do you have any idea of what you are getting for velocity?

I’ve really have no idea. I have looked online for what others have gotten with this bullet/coating/powder combination, didn’t find a lot of info. Mostly what I’ve found are a lot of warnings not to break the RPM limit, that you need filler, and should never exceed 30 grains of H4895, and that accuracy can only be attained between 1800-1900FPS.
I suspect that the 36gr load is somewhere between 2150FPS-2300FPS. Someday I’ll break down and buy a chronograph.

Fiver, Ian, and Spin,
I’m running low on the H4895. I will use what I have left to investigate the 35gr-36gr region, I definitely want to shoot some ten shot, 100 yard groups.

The next slowest powder I have to try is the SW Precision/Lovex S062(similar to Varget). Then going slower I have H414, IMR4350, IMR4831, and then the Norma Magnum Rifle Powder.

I’m thinking of starting at 35gr and going up to 40gr of SWP/S062.

Josh

 

[fiver]

if it's right there with Varget that sounds good.

Mostly what I’ve found are a lot of warnings not to break the RPM limit,

park this right next to the infamous 1422 number in the round file.
your already past that point.

 

[Brad]

if it's right there with Varget that sounds good.


park this right next to the infamous 1422 number in the round file.
your already past that point.

And Marlin micro groove barrels won’t shoot well above 1600 FPS.

 

[Ian]

Mostly what I’ve found are a lot of warnings not to break the RPM limit, that you need filler, and should never exceed 30 grains of H4895, and that accuracy can only be attained between 1800-1900FPS.

Ah yes, idiots on parade. Well now you know first hand what is balderdash when you see it in print.

I'll run some Quickload numbers tomorrow if you tell me barrel length and actual bullet weight and refresh me on caliber (.30-'06?). Exact trim length would also be helpful, as would be the grains of water a fired case holds when filled level with the mouth.

 

[Joshua]

I'll run some Quickload numbers tomorrow if you tell me barrel length and actual bullet weight and refresh me on caliber (.30-'06?). Exact trim length would also be helpful, as would be the grains of water a fired case holds when filled level with the mouth.

Thank you very much for the offer. I will get you that information this afternoon when I get home from work.
Josh