How about we discuss using Lee Tumble Lube cast bullets?

[Bret4207]

ww alloy can far exceed 1300 fps in a lever gun.

Ditto. Straight older WW can go to at least 1800 in most rifles and you can add nearly 500 fps for some rifles and loads. Stop worrying about Bhn and try shooting and building loads. You will likely spend more time finding a design your gun and you both like than you ever will having to play with Bhn because it needs to be played with.

 

[RBHarter]

I believe it was love life that said , " go shoot it and find out if it'll work " . Not a terribly deep notion but remarkably effective in affect .

 

[Missionary]

To this velocity gain (200-350 fps) from revolver to carbine I will add … 41 Magnum 414 Supermag 45 Colt 45 ACP

 

[fiver]

pistol calibers in lever rifles with lead bullets is probably the most perfect match ever made.
they just let you do stuff you cannot get away with in other platforms.
even rifle length cases in lever guns just don't allow you the latitude and freedom to push things like the little guys can without having to resort to a gas check.

you'd think meh,,, it's just a longer case, they both have rims and are straight wall type cases so why not?
I don't know, but gas checks go on at 1400 fps in the bigger longer cases.

 

[Walks]

Thanks,
That's a good rule of thumb to follow. One I had forgot about.

 

[Sandspider500]

Going from 45 colt in a 4 5/8" Blackhawk to a 20" Rossi 92 I gain almost exactly 300fps with fast to medium pistol powders, be-86, hs6, unique, 800x, aa5 even 2400. Then I get almost on the dot 500fps gain with 296, h110, and 300mp. 1500fps with ww no gas check no problem.

 

[Ian]

I don't know what the pressure or velocity was but 19.6 grains of 2400 under a 429421HP cast of 16:1 alloy has done 2.5" at 100 a few times out of my Model 29 with a 4 MOA Ultradot and would probably do better if I were a good handgunner. Plain base, Felix lube, no leading, no problems.

 

[462]

I once tested the 6 1/2" Blackhawk, the plain base Lee 358-158 RNFN and Lyman's maximum load of W296, at 1400+ fps, and got leading near the muzzle. The same bullet, alloy, lube and load shot from the 24" Rossi/EMF Hartford doesn't lead.
Could it be that lube was being lost in the Blackhawk's cylinder/forcing cone gap?

 

[Mitty38]

Everything I loaded in 38 special was with lee alox for a long time. Heck, I even aloxed some of the lubersized bullets fiver sent me when I first started. It worked well for me when I could get deals on non lubed bullets for my .357

I think it is a good tool to get someone started without a lot of cash. If you take time to wipe off bases, and the nose after loading, it will not dirty your barrel very much or cause too much smoke.
All you need is a cup of hot water to warm t it up in and a quart zip lock baggie.
Alox allows the new guy room and time to learn the basics of art of reloading, If it was not for the alox and the lee starter set. i probably would have given up on reloading before I started.
As far as .38 special the alox can get me on spot with no leading. With any round I have sent thru it so far. However with the pan lubed rounds made with the lube that fiver sent me, I can get tighter groups. Of course I am sizing now so, cant' say as of yet %100 that it was the lube change.

 

[Ian]

I once tested the 6 1/2" Blackhawk, the plain base Lee 358-158 RNFN and Lyman's maximum load of W296, at 1400+ fps, and got leading near the muzzle. The same bullet, alloy, lube and load shot from the 24" Rossi/EMF Hartford doesn't lead.
Could it be that lube was being lost in the Blackhawk's cylinder/forcing cone gap?

Maybe the revolver had a faster rate of twist and the alloy was marginal for the stress or powder used so they were wearing away on the drive side of the lands (in addition to the engraves already being widened toward the front from skidding the forcing cone a little) allowing gas leaks on the trailing edge, and the worn away plus gas-cut particles caused your lead deposits toward the muzzle?

296 will push hard all the way out in a revolver so if wearing/leaking were occurring it would show up more toward the muzzle. Unique at the same peak pressure (albeit considerably less velocity) might not have leaded at all.

 

[Walks]

Except for that Lee 358 RNFP, I've never shot a hot .357Mag load that didn't use the Lyman #358156GC. Over MAX 2400.
Never had leading in any .357 Rifle or Revolver, with that load. Plus that bullet feeds extremely well in the 5 Lever Guns I've shot it in.

Would like to try a TL .357Mag Bullet with that Load, But NOT enough to buy a Lee 2cav just to try 50-100 bullets. The only one that would work in a lever gun is their SWC TL, and I have 8 38cal SWC molds now. I don't need another.

 

[Bret4207]

I once tested the 6 1/2" Blackhawk, the plain base Lee 358-158 RNFN and Lyman's maximum load of W296, at 1400+ fps, and got leading near the muzzle. The same bullet, alloy, lube and load shot from the 24" Rossi/EMF Hartford doesn't lead.
Could it be that lube was being lost in the Blackhawk's cylinder/forcing cone gap?

An identical looking 6.5" BH shot with the load might not have leaded. Every barrel is a law unto itself IME. I think sometimes it's that simple.

 

[462]

Yep, and another 24" rifle barrel may have leaded. Weird stuff happens.

I was concerned that the 358-158 RNFN's very puny lube groove wouldn't hold enough lube for a 24" barrel, but it was not the case. Also, that bullet doesn't lead the .38 Special Uberti 1866's 24" barrel.

 

[Walks]

Never leaded My Kids Marlin 1894CB 24". Neither did the Lyman #358665. However the Lee Bullet has a smaller Lube Groove. But it never seemed to make a difference.
I used Tamarack 50/50 until I ran out in 2003, then a unknown lube I had in a "1 lb" coffee can, had it sitting under the loading bench for years, Guy that ran LAPD Harbor Range gave it to meet in the early 1980's. Nothing ever leaded with that lube.
Wish I knew what was in it.
I've used WLL BAC for about 10yrs. X-LOX for that N.O.E TL bullet, no leading there either. Even tried it on some Lyman #358477 cast of 50/50 - COWW/#2, shot in Colt OP 6" & S&W 10 6". No leading there either.

 

[Mitty38]

Never tried tumble lube with 30-06 I have been inspired.
Playing around with some COWW 170 grain flat nose tumble lube bullets. Lubed(alox in a sandwich bag, laid out on wax paper to dry) sized down to .311 for my 06.
Then lubed them again.
Seated one to the lands at 3.054 then backed up to 3.005, for the load. That's about .03 longer then the published load.
Then I loaded them up without gas checks.
( I want to see if Alox alone will do the job on reduced loads.)
Got 15 with Red Dot l,five of each 12.5, 13, 13.5.
15 with Universal,five of each 11.4, 12.1, 12.7
Got to work the next 3 days but taking them out Saturday, along with some lead remover and a cleaning kit, if weather permits
Going to see what happens.

 

[Bill]

Mitty, you will need that cleaning kit with those loads, I use Alox thinned, but at much lower velocitys 7 grains of bullseye works good


Bill

 

[Mitty38]

Mitty, you will need that cleaning kit with those loads, I use Alox thinned, but at much lower velocitys 7 grains of bullseye works good


Bill

THANKS Bill,
I know people are pushing these loads with gas Checks or PC.
I have a lot of Red Dot and Universal and alox to play with.
And I am musing the loads will going to be well over the wall of 1300 fps that these powders and that lube works best at. Probably in the 1800-2400 fps range?????
Just got to see how much, how bad and if mashing them a bit harder makes maters worse or better. Or maybe can I find this weird sweet spot with my gun and a load, that defies logical explanation.
Sometimes you just got to see for yourself. Then you can say been there done that. Ya know.

Then when that quite possible fails I will just ask you guys what tumble lubed, Red Dot load the "band of fellows" here have been successful with under those circumstances. I have seen Brad has fiddled with this kind of stuff a bit.

 

[Bill]

The 11 of universal is getting close, 9.2 of blue dot has worked very good in my 03a3, I don't get any leading up to around 1300 fps, but match accuracy comes in at between 1100 and 1200 with the plain based loads, some make a good showing at 50 yards then fall apart at 100, I figure they are flirting with the sound barrier at 100, 6.8 to 7.2 of the fast stuff has worked best for me, although I do take some ribbing from the other milsurp shooters.

Bill

 

[Mitty38]

The 11 of universal is getting close, 9.2 of blue dot has worked very good in my 03a3, I don't get any leading up to around 1300 fps, but match accuracy comes in at between 1100 and 1200 with the plain based loads, some make a good showing at 50 yards then fall apart at 100, I figure they are flirting with the sound barrier at 100, 6.8 to 7.2 of the fast stuff has worked best for me, although I do take some ribbing from the other milsurp shooters.

Bill

YE, that 1125 FPS speed bump can kinda mess with things especially if you hit it going up and down.

Right now, my personal see for myself experiment, is purely to figure out , where I can push Alox and Red Dot to without the use of a gas check. The Universal loads are just for a comparison.
Figure If it turns out like I am thinking, my next steps to be lowering the powder weights, with each till I get in the no lead zone.

 

[Bill]

Mitty, sounds like a very good plan, each gun is different

Bill