Interesting Low Node test today!


Well-Known Member
Hi Guys,
Beacuse of my need for a super quiet or non rifle sounding load to cull all the woodcucks I have on my property
I decide to do some testing today with My Vanguard 358 Winchester and super light loads with the RCBS 200 grain projectile!
Using some of the plain base bullets from one of Ben's Plain Based RCBS Moulds: I had Plain base RCBS 200 grain PC coated bullets with Smokes Gray coating & they were sized .359"
My Choice right off the bat was Red Dot because It had proven to be very accurate load with these plain base bullets at 7 grains!
So I loaded 5 each with 7 gr, 6 gr, 5 gr, 4 gr, 3 gr, & 2.5 gr Red Dot ( each one had a weighed charge) Since I had 2 more weighed bullets and 2 more pieces of primed brass I added a 8.1 gr charge for those two. All shot at 50 yds

First off cold barrel. I got one o the left & the next 3 in the same hole 5th I pulled. Well this was a know accurate load so lets see as I drop the charge!
So 6 gr very good , 5 gr very good so now at 4 grain group was nice but 3" low and I could see the bullets hit the target in a 32 X scope ( very cool!)
OK so what would 3 grains do? Well I picked the center bull on the 2nd target and amazingly the group was very tight except for a flier just off the bottom of the target! but these were 5.5" low of POA This was amazing me! OK so I now went to the 2.5 ( had my soild range rod ready if they were to stick in the bore!)
No Need! They shot a tight 3/4 inch group however they were way off the target at 11" below POA on the backer board!
The thing that amazed me was the group outside of the 7 grain starter were similar never going above 3/4 inch! ( except for the one 3 grain flier which brought it to total 1 " group
The interesting thing is by the 4 gr charge it was easy to watch the bullets impact at 50 yds! You could actually see them lob in!
I shot the 3 and 2.5 gr charges without ear protection...& i have to say while not as quiet as the 3 gr charges in my 8mm GEW they are not recognizable as a rifle.
More like a small firecracker!
Anyway here are the targets Hopefully you can read them ok!


Well-Known Member
Heck, that 3 gr load looks pretty good. Sounds like what you were looking for, but will
need to crank up the sights and probably be pretty good on your range measurement
or estimation. I imagine that the trajectory is a bit like a tossed brick.
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Staff member
Titegroup would likely work well too.

That 3 gr load looks like good critter killing ammo. A 200 gr bullet even at 600 FPS is gonna make an impact.

Nice work Jim.


Staff member
Everything I read here says it is as position insensitive as anything out there.

Pretty sure Ian and Bruce like it for reduced loads like this,


Well-Known Member
I feel I solved position sensitivity ( it is not up against the primer as most think!........ it is anywhere the charge can be located consistently!)
When I'm feeding single loaded cartridges into my chamber by hand I put all the powder forward ( not backward) In effect I'm dropping all the powder to the bullet when I insert it into the chamber!


Well-Known Member
clays is also good at working in big spaces with small amounts.
I haven't tried it but I would also suspect E-3 is too.

for a list of powders that would do the job using a 12-Ga load book and picking powders that work with 3/4-7/8 oz. loads at lower pressures would be good choices. [titewad would be dirty, it is anyway/titegroup would work well and be clean]


Well-Known Member
I feel I solved position sensitivity ( it is not up against the primer as most think!........ it is anywhere the charge can be located consistently!)
When I'm feeding single loaded cartridges into my chamber by hand I put all the powder forward ( not backward) In effect I'm dropping all the powder to the bullet when I insert it into the chamber!
I like your approach.


Notorious member
Not too shabby there Jim, I think I'd stick with three grains, dial in some elevation, see where it prints at 20, 30, and 40 yards, make some notes and call it done.


Well-Known Member
Impressive test JW, very impressive indeed.
Think that 3 gr load would be dandy.



Well-Known Member
OK I did some shooting Yesterday and today! Wanted to make sure that 3 Grain Red Dot 358 Win 200 grain load wasn't a fluke.
Shot 20 more rounds and they all ended up in the same spot! So I say it is a good Super low node load for back yard chucks up to 50 yards!
Shot without Ear muffs. Sure did not sound like a rifle More high V air gun!

Also Decided to shoot some heavy weights in a few of my rifles. First off I had 2 nice big boy Bullets from Ben for my GEW 98 8MM; His Lee Karabiner and his NOE .327-331 I think both were about 240 grain range Because of the size I decided on on of the slowest powders I use for Low Node :)
I picked 8 gr Unique for the 331's and 7.7 grains for the Lee
While the 331's were PC coated The Lee's were already( as received) Lubed in Ben's Red and BLL with copper gas checks on them! So you will see there is nothing shabby with Traditional lubed bullets!
Target Below: Both shot With Receiver sights at 50 yards

I also shot the heaviest bullet I shoot in my 243 Win Ruger 77 it is the NOE 105 gr
I have shot this bullet very accurately at 2200 FPS as well as 900 FPS! I enjoy shooting at 900 FPS better of course!

I decide to try Unique this time ( I usually shoot American Select with this bullet for low node)
Had no Idea on load so I tried a 7 grain Unique load ....Well I was happy, all groups were under an inch and this one was my best!


Well-Known Member
Are those 8mm and .243 Unique loads quiet enough not to annoy your neighbors or will you have
to stick with the 3 gr type loads?

Fantastic results, which requires a lot of skill at the casting bench, the reloading bench and finally
behind the trigger, too, to obtain. Well done, sir. :)

I have not gone below 10 gr Unique in the big bottleneck cartridges, but it looks like I should give
it a try.



Well-Known Member
Well Bill,
The 8 MM and the 243 loads are still rifle like. However I have a great 3 grain Red Dot 8mm load for my 29.5" barrel GEW98 using Al's 130 Grain FN bullet that sounds like a small firecracker! No one would ever think it is a rifle! My only problem shooting chucks with that in my yard is that it is receiver rear and Aperture front! Not the best combo sight wise for chucks! & as you can imagine a Full length WWI battle rifle is no quick to handle for off hand!

Bill as far as the shooting; I did heavy and lite bench rest shooting in the 1980's Then I gave that all up for Flintlock long gun building & shooting!
But somehow all you guys here, got me hooked on shooting all my rifles with cast bullets ( I think it was 2011) I only have to blame Ben. Brad, Fiver ,Ian & Dan for that ....they were the best mentors I ever had on the CB forum!

Once they got me past the proper casting techniques.... the old Bench rest discipline kicked in.......
It became very easy for me and from that I'm always looking for a challenge. Yes I have shot cast bullet in excess of 2000 FPS ( 2200) was my fastest with that NOE 243 bullet. Then Ben got me really hooked on" how slow can you go" and I push those limits almost every weekend!
There is something special about hearing the report of the rifle followed by the impact on the target !
I just love that and I also like to drive the other shooters on the range crazy!!!!


Well-Known Member
OK, I can see that you learned to really shoot and reload, and then added the cast. Clearly you are doing
a great job. It is not trivial to shoot groups like that, takes a lot of pieces coming together.

S Mac

SW Mo Hillbilly
I have had pretty good results with the 358242 in my Handi 35 Whelen, 4 grs. of Promo. Lots of fun.


Well-Known Member
I forgot to mention another great mentor! Can't believe I forgot......He went by the name "Oneshirt" back there!
Sorry about that Paul!;)