LLA vs moly lube

MW65

Wetside, Oregon
Gents,

I've been playing around with Ed Harris' .30-06 gallery load for a little while. I'm currently using Lee 155gr & Rcbs 180 fn. Sizing to .311 and using LLA.

I've had great success with it and bullseye powder. Has anyone seen major differences between using LLA vs a conventional lube?

Rem 03 holding tight with both loads. Rem 700 loves the Rcbs.

Thanks!
Andy
 

Gary

SE Kansas
I powder coat and THEN use BLL. I can't testify to any significant difference, but it seems to work well in my 7.62 x 39.
 

MW65

Wetside, Oregon
I powder coat and THEN use BLL. I can't testify to any significant difference, but it seems to work well in my 7.62 x 39.
Thanks! I'm pretty happy with LLA at the moment. Getting a "lube star" at the muzzle, and no leading build up.

I'm also only pushing the 1000-1200fps mark, so not taxing the lube/load.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
back when we were seeing how slow we could go with everything I got the 223 down to about 450 fps with LLA cut 50-50 with mineral spirits and then adding a dusting of graphite.
without the graphite the bullets would sometimes stick in the barrel.
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
back when we were seeing how slow we could go with everything I got the 223 down to about 450 fps with LLA cut 50-50 with mineral spirits and then adding a dusting of graphite.
without the graphite the bullets would sometimes stick in the barrel.
Boy, you guys have pushed more envelopes than I could ever imagine in your trials.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Well, how you going to know where the edge is if you never go over and have a look over it?
:)

Bill
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
we still have more stuff to test.
I just put together a very light coat of PC on some bullets to compare to non P/C bullets, both of them are lubed with the same bullet lube I normally use.
I have a feeling I can use the PC wash to bring the velocity and accuracy back down to just under the line I crossed last spring.
the goal isn't to go faster with this test, it's to see if I can use the pc as a tool to actually modify the pressure bump and slow down the velocity enough to come back down under the line I crossed.
[IE make the 47gr load in the 308 shoot like the 45gr load]
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
the goal isn't to go faster with this test, it's to see if I can use the pc as a tool to actually modify the pressure bump and slow down the velocity enough to come back down under the line I crossed.
[IE make the 47gr load in the 308 shoot like the 45gr load]
Not sure (I'm definitely lost) on the "slow down the velocity" part here. From what " I " have read on the board, the plastic was to reduce friction. Going on that assumption, are you trying to alter the vibration pattern of the barrel to MOVE the accuracy node to 47 gr? Or is the 45 gr level the peak for that mix & you wanna avoid the plastic state?
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
what I'm trying to see is if I jumped over the alloys ability, or if I just,, well, if I'm just going too fast finally for my level of equipment and ability's.
I'm right at the wall for jacketed pressures and such [like my recoil tolerance] anyway, I just want to see if lowering the friction in the throat is gonna make any difference as far as accuracy.
if I see the groups come back to or near their previous umm shape and size, then that would indicate I am in the ball park with my assumption.

I'm kind of floating around out here in no mans land already, I might as well poke at the edges of the darkness and see if any light comes in.
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
I'm right at the wall for jacketed pressures and such [like my recoil tolerance] anyway, I just want to see if lowering the friction in the throat is gonna make any difference as far as accuracy.
In my mind, sorta been there done that. I did case neck tension, seating depth, bullet sizing / design testing using a primer only. Measured with a rod from the muzzle. I was going on the premise that anything beyond what was required for centering that held up the slug, altered / raised the burn rate curve lowering top end potential. (Concluded in my mind that was true.) As a result, I always said on the other board, that the faster I wanna go, the smaller I size, but that’s over simplification that wasn’t worth even trying to explain. Apply that to handgun as well, especially with PB.

So I violate a lotta rules for bullet fit & seal for HV. Coarse, I never had PC to play with.
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
You are probably on to something, cause here’s my version of powder coating for HV. The alox/ mica was my version of PC.

47CD9153-BE69-4487-ABCD-080026D45652.jpeg
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
we get kind of to the weird side when we start out to the very end of the line.
I just found a small batch of bullets I had coated with nu-finish some years back I was thinking about shooting sans lube in the grooves.
never did shoot those of course but did and have been shooting jacketed bullets coated with the stuff and then polished up.
not sure on how it works or doesn't work just yet, but I'm 500 rounds into not cleaning my Varmint rifle and it's still shooting 1/2" groups consistently.
sometimes you just gotta try things.

on the sizing thing I have really become a fan of not sizing from the mold, at least not any more than necessary to seat and crimp the gas check in place.
I would rather have a mold cut to pour to 309 with WW alloy and then manipulate it from there through alloy choices than have it cut to 311 and size the bullet down.
once I draw something up I have taken into consideration as much as possible the movement of the alloy by the lands and grooves.
I don't want to be moving lead around before then, and I don't want to be moving too much in the barrel either.
I sometimes wonder if the over lube thing isn't more a design/diameter issue and not a lubricant issue.
it just happens to be the easy thing to see and gets blamed.
when the real problem was an angle on a lube groove wall or not enough distance between drive bands for displaced metal.
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
we get kind of to the weird side when we start out to the very end of the line.
I just found a small batch of bullets I had coated with nu-finish some years back I was thinking about shooting sans lube.
sometimes you just gotta try things.

on the sizing thing I have really become a fan of not sizing from the mold, at least not any more than necessary to seat and crimp the gas check in place.

I sometimes wonder if the over lube thing isn't more a design/diameter issue and not a lubricant issue.
it just happens to be the easy thing to see and gets blamed.
Careful, I used Nu Finish as a bore cleaner & prep. (Slippery waxeffect) Nu Finish has aluminum as an abrasive in the polish.

Trying things is my BIG THING these days even when you CAN’T explain, theorize, or justify what’s happening. (If it makes a difference, it does). The things I do make me persona non grata at times as they violate fit & gas cutting theories. While LLA is absolutely one of the worlds WORST lubricants, it is one of the best / easiest applied bullet protectants against gas cutting ever created. (We all have seen the torch melting the bullet but not the alox.)

From my experience, over lubrication is a myth unless it results in hydrolic sizing (design is not capable dispersing “the lube” of choice) of the slug at what ever velocity it is running in that “TEMPERATURE” zone. That doesn’t have to be high velocity either. Lubrication occurs more from the last bullet shot which is why I like to shoot dirty. Helps prevent over lubrication. IMO.
 
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Ian

Well-Known Member
I think over-lubrication from huge grooves and low-viscosity lubes flush the bore and make for C.O.R.E.

I'm beholden to no theories, but keep them all in mind as tools in the box of thinking/trying stuff to solve problems. Sizing smaller for higher velocity makes a lot of sense in two ways if you think about it. For one, the bullet can jump right up into the rifling while the pressure is very low (because it takes a lot less pressure than swaging a fat bullet through the funnel) and if we keep the pressure low at first, less chance for the metal to move sideways or crooked. For another, once the bullet has made an easy transition to the rifling, in about 2" the pressure gets to whatever me make it (50K psi often enough) and the metal is going to bump up whether we like it or not, but only enough to seal, not distort excessively. If the bullet is already a thousandth or half-thousandth over groove diameter, the only chance of leakage is during the throat transition. If the bullet is small and making that transition while mostly being pushed by a column of powder kernels and low gas pressure, not much chance for it to get gas-cut before it can cork-up the bore/groove. What I had a difficult time with was squirting throat/neck-filling bullets into the rifling without mangling them into an RPM-monster's wet dream.....that requires deep grooves and lots of room for metal to go, an exactly correct ductile alloy, and pressure curve tuned to a gnat's eye window.
 

Bass Ackward

Active Member
I agree.

I also used the powder column in an 06 as a base protectant. If you have an improved case design, burn rate is enhanced and the sharper shoulder helps to hold that protection in the case where the curve is .... enhanced further. (Base protectant is removed)

That’s why I liked Quickload. (Until I lost my computer) I could see where that peak wave was going to occur down the tube with any powder. That portion of the program was .... invaluable. (Can’t use the word accurate cause I can’t prove it.)

Wife was paranoid about information security. Told our grandson to go downstairs & grab “grandpa’s old computer” and put some holes in it. Needless to say, David grabbed the WRONG one. Lost Quickload & an enormous amount of my records.
 

freebullet

Well-Known Member
Alox in an indoor range gets amusing looks, especially when fired 33 at a time real fast.

It's the other black powder....or goo. I didn't know it was Smokey the first three years I used it.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
If you still have the disc you can reinstall it on your current computer. The license agreement states it is only to be installed on one machine at a time, not that you can't delete it from one and then install it on another or newer machine as you see fit. I believe that holes in the hard drive constitute an "uninstall".

QL is also invaluable for determining port pressure in semi-autos. With some empirical data accumulated from load testing and function/velocity evaluation of the data, the "accuracy" of the predictions can be verified. The predicted pressure curve values are real close to actual in my experience, which allows me to change powders or bullet weights and go right to a minimum-functional load in a semi-auto for a starting point. Establishing a data set based on port location, port size, and bore caliber makes AR-15-variant load workups a cinch, and enables the safe use of a much wider variety of powders than most thought possible with the M-14 once you know the maximum port pressure specification.