Load data?

[STIHL]

Where do you guys get the data, or where to start with certain fast powders in large cartridges?

In this case I’m looking at titegroup, long shot, type powder for use in subsonic 300 blackout loads. With 220grain cast, I’m getting by with h110, and h108 is going to work, but it being a ball powder I use more than I want plus in shooting a suppressed sbr. I really want fastcwith a clean burn. Titegroup would fill this void well I think. But for future reference I would like to use some in 30-06 and maybe 7.52x54r if it’s applicable.

 

[358156 hp]

Are you trying to make this work in a gas gun, or bolt action?

 

[popper]

Hodgdon shows 9.5 H110 as max load and min is UNTESTED. cfe pistol worked in my 10" but won't cycle. 2400 did cycle, 170 & 185gr the heavies I have. I looked at W231, pressure gets pretty high before you get much fps.

 

[Ian]

Gas guns will only work with 3-4 powders. Bolters can use anything slower than Unique. Longshot should work but can be very touchy with heavy subsonic loads.

Where to get data? Make it up based on a lot of experience observing the effects of case volume, expansion ratio, and bullet mass on various powders. Quickload is a big help when going completely off-book but can also get you in trouble really fast if you don't have experience to sanity-check the data it generates and know how to maximize the validity of the inputs.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

1680 /CFE BLK is what all other powders will be measured against for subs in the 300 BO.

 

[STIHL]

Are you trying to make this work in a gas gun, or bolt action?

It is a gas gun. 8” barreled SBR. Pistol gas system. It cycles fine with h110 I’d have to go double check charge weight on them.

 

[STIHL]

Gas guns will only work with 3-4 powders. Bolters can use anything slower than Unique. Longshot should work but can be very touchy with heavy subsonic loads.

Where to get data? Make it up based on a lot of experience observing the effects of case volume, expansion ratio, and bullet mass on various powders. Quickload is a big help when going completely off-book but can also get you in trouble really fast if you don't have experience to sanity-check the data it generates and know how to maximize the validity of the inputs.

Ian you actually answered the question I was after. I have been bouncing the idea to take .357 mag data and 45ACP data a 357 mag is going to be real close to a 300 blk in volume but bullet weight and volume should be fairly close to a 45 ACP with a 230 ball.

I have done this before in figuring bullet weights not listed and adjusting data through law of averages and it has gotten me thorough just fine. I guess it’s not a need right now seeing has I have plenty of H-108 to burn and at 7-8-10 grains a load I’ll be shooting that stuff for years, guess I’m just scratching a curiosity in how some of the loads I’ve seen came about.

 

[fiver]

the same way LEE gets some of theirs.
a similar case capacity and bore size to make a prediction, then back off and come up.
for instance most cast loads will swap around the various 30 cal cases no problem and even go right up to 32 cal just fine.
reduce your most accurate load to 80% for the 7mm, and increase by 10% for a 35.

anyway for your situation 4227.

 

[Ian]

Data for gas guns is well-established on both AAC's site and Nosler online data. Not much difference between 230 cast and 220 jax in this instance, believe it or not. The exact same powder charge and bullets I use in my BLKs cycles a suppressed AR47 a friend of mine has. When you're pushing that much mass really slow down a small hole, difference that case volume and engraving resistance make on peak pressure and velocity becomes very small.

Or just use start at about 10 grains of Reloder 7, either flavor of 4198, or 5744. Reloder 7 is my first choice for suppressed, IMR 4198 for unsuppressed but subsonic heavies.
Tune up until it cracks and back off a few tenths. If it cracks and won't lock back, polish and lube your buffer tube and hammer nose and make sure the gas port is big enough (carbine gas needs .106" minimum IME even suppressed, .120" is better. Pistol gas needs high 90s at least).

CW, love ya, mean it, but I gotta totally disagree with you about the 1680. 1680 has been total GARBAGE behind 230 cast subs in all three of my BLKs (one pistol-length and two carbine-length gas systems). Might as well open the action and dump a whole can of ground black pepper in the fire control group. Ballistics sucks too, velocity all over the map, and when you're done with a magazine go ahead and unscrew the suppressor (with a hot pad) and shake out the rest of the 70% of the powder that didn't burn. It DOES cycle, but? It's pretty good for 150-160-grainers tuned up for speed, but so is 296.

 

[Ian]

It is a gas gun. 8” barreled SBR. Pistol gas system. It cycles fine with h110 I’d have to go double check charge weight on them.

Ohhhh....

Dwell time (or lack therof) is going to eat your lunch if you want to stay under 1050 fps where the bullet flight noise is minimal. Typically 9" or a can that generates a lot of back pressure is needed to make it work right with any powder known to man and keep 230-grain cast subsonic. If you lighten the carrier and/or buffer to help it might have feeding problems (getting all the way into battery).

 

[Matt]

Surprised to hear that 1680 has given trouble. It’s the only powder that will reliably operate my pistol length gas system 300 with the Lee 230 cast at subsonic velocity. I can’t remember when I last cleaned mine, it’s at least 300 rounds ago.
296/H110 works great with 230 cast, but I can’t get to subsonic velocity with it and have 100% reliability. I don’t use a suppressor and my subsonic loads were just to see if I could do it.
I do like the low recoil with subsonic loads and can use it on my mild steel pistol plates.

I started my load development for 300 BO using the latest addition of the Lee loading manual.
Below is a 20 round “mag dump” at 50 yards. Cast in the 300 BO is cheap practice and fun. Worth the effort to make it work.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

CW, love ya, mean it, but I gotta totally disagree with you about the 1680. 1680 has been total GARBAGE behind 230 cast subs in all three of my BLKs (one pistol-length and two carbine-length gas systems). Might as well open the action and dump a whole can of ground black pepper in the fire control group. Ballistics sucks too, velocity all over the map, and when you're done with a magazine go ahead and unscrew the suppressor (with a hot pad) and shake out the rest of the 70% of the powder that didn't burn. It DOES cycle, but? It's pretty good for 150-160-grainers tuned up for speed, but so is 296.

I am also Quite surprised Ian... I have had 300 BO since 2011 300 Whisper before that and owned five guns so chambered at one time. Also, counting the three guys I shoot & hunt with we have close to a ten rifles & pistols in 300 AAC. All shooting suppressed, all shooting subs and supers. & all shooting my loads & cast... None have issues as you have explained. Not at all doubting you, as you of coarse, wouldn't say what hadn't happened.
I have spoken with untold numbers of folks in person and on forums and never ever once herd bad anything on 1680 in the 300. ACCEPT maybe that it doesn't do great on light bullet supers. But if choosing a 150g + subs and supers its been very good. Sure there is many choices. We all can only answer from our own experiences.

CW

 

[popper]

My experience with 1680 and cfe blk is that it is dirty unless loaded close to max. Even with 220gr, 0.7 seating depth, 9gr, GRT shows burnout past 16" barrel. Only 70% fill ratio.

 

[Matt]

Maybe that’s the key, my load is 11.5 grains of 1680, my seating depth is short enough to feed reliably from surplus 20 round magazines. I’ll have to check the actual OAL

 

[Ian]

Lots of people on the internet have no problem feeding, chambering, and shooting powder-coated NOE 247s in their BLKs, but I haven't figured out how they get a bullet with a .305", parallel bore-riding nose to chamber in a .30-caliber barrel. None of my Blackouts will even begin to chamber that bullet without the coating, mush less with, unless severely nose-sized.

In these situations, there is most likely a "rest of the story" there somewhere, but the filth of 1680 actually caused hammer follows and doubles in my friend's SBR (JP speed hammer) inside of 30 rounds. Mine being mostly "stock" with light polishing never had that problem but like I said it was like dumping pepper in the works after a short while. We tried several loads from cycled but won't lock to supersonic with the Lee 230 and no dice. We gave up. He settled on IMR 4198 and I use Reloder 7. We still get mummies and soot, but it accumulates to a certain point and doesn't get any worse or cause stoppages.

 

[fiver]

lot of people have issues with the LEE 230 and the only problem I've had with it was going too slow.

anyway, back to the 1680.
I just sent 3 lbs. of it down with the BIL to shoot in his AR rifle.
I know he is gonna be shooting jacketed and the words sub-sonic ain't in his vocabulary.
so I felt it was a better option than giving him some H-110 or AA#-9 [which is what I zip cast along with in the bolt guns]
I would have given him some 4227[since I know it works well at sub speeds with heavyish bullets in a carbine length gun],,,,, but I only got a pound of it sitting here, after trying it out in a bunch of other cases, and then forgetting to replace it.

 

[Ian]

lot of people have issues with the LEE 230 and the only problem I've had with it was going too slow.

I bought three of them trying to get one that wasn't tapered so badly due to boring bar deflection and they could all be used in rotation because they were so identical. I wonder if you may have the answer there, the only thing sealing gas was the base band and maybe a couple of microbands, all else being smaller than groove diameter. 1680 needs some pressure and containment to burn correctly and a slippery, powder coated bullet having practically no engraving pressure was probably causing near-hangfire conditions. My friend's mould cast identical to all of mine also and we had both cast from his alloy.

 

[fiver]

yeah the diameters are kinda weird.

I think my saving grace isn't the bullet, I'm positive it is the rifle itself.
the little bolt gun is an original AAC and it has match grade chambering and a real good 1-7 twist barrel.
[if I had to make a money bet I'd say it is a Bergara]
anyway.
I either have to turn the necks on mil-surp brass, or pick through several makers cases just to get the LEE to chamber because of the tight neck the chamber has.

the way the barrel-throat is cut I can scuff seat the RCBS silhouette bullet with a nose diameter close to 301 no problem, and the LEE slides in there like a champ without any contact at magazine length. [close but no cigar...LOL]
but it does match the taper real nice so a win there.

I know the RCBS bullet won't work in any? of the AR rifles [none I've seen anyway] and the LEE has to be seated a bit deeper to chamber in them.

 

[STIHL]

I may be up chits creek then on the 230 lees, all I have loaded is some 220 grain berrys plated bullets, Ive got a 1000 or so of the lees cast up, guess ill just have to run me a test batch and see where I end up. Mine cycles fine with H110 in the 1050 FPS range. The can probably adds enough back pressure to cycle the bolt reliably. I can do this test easily as I can just walk out of the shop and shoot and see what the load does.

 

[fiver]

yeah,,,, man you gotta try them.
I've seen the LEE run with gas checks, powder coated, I 45-45-45 them, with the tail milled off the mold, and all sorts of other stuff done to them.
if you got a 1-8 barrel [shrug] you might have to work on them [the ammo] a bit harder.