My 6.5CM journey

Sevenfan

Member
When I decided to join the CBA and participate in local matches, my choices were pretty limited and didn't think I wanted to use my 7RM, 338WM, or 30-30 for competition. That left a couple recent acquisitions that are, for me, target rifles but only one, a Savage 12FV in 6.5CM, seemed to be a potential candidate. The other, a 22CM I assembled, was ruled out without consideration.

My 6.5 is an accurate 1/2MOA shooter with jacketed and a pleasure to shoot. It is bone stock except I chose to replace the OE "tupperware" stock with a laminated Bobby Hart LRT from Stocky's. Rifle now weighs 12 1/2 lbs including scope.

I purchased at least 400lbs of lead ingots and an older Lyman 61 furnace from Shuz in Oct 2020 initially planning to cast for pistol. He invited me to a CBA match at the local range, and I thought it would be fun to join, so became a CBA member and started searching for 6.5 moulds. Being it was mid-pandemic that proved challenging. The only 6.5 mould I could find was a NIB Lyman 266673 off eBay, yeah, I paid a premium for it.

By this time I had run some test sessions casting 44 cal boolits to see if I could get the hang of things and get the rhythm down. I felt comfortable giving the 266673 a go. Fully cleaned and degreased, pre-heated on edge of the pot, I went at it. As expected the first several drops were not well formed, but soon they started showing promise and it wasn't long before I was dropping well formed boolits with nice square driving bands and lube grooves.

In July I loaded 4ea over 17.0 & 17.4gr A5744 respectively and result was 5 of the 8 hit target @50yds, the other 3 were off the target on the backer. Don't recall velocity (think it was around 1650fps) but I had terrible leading in the bore that took 3 days to get out of the bore. I abandoned any further effort with that mould.

By pure luck I ran across the 266469 listed on Accurate Shooter site for $40 so snatched it up and decided to use a known alloy and ordered some Lyman #2 from Rotometals to case those 140s with. As with the other mould, I washed it thoroughly in lacquer thinner before use.

My 6.5 has a short throat requiring me to seat the 140s quite deep, see below:

rounds.jpg

I show a seated 129gr Nosler ABLR, which this rifle really likes, for reference, the 140s seen are culls I use for dummy rounds.

I weigh sorted the 140s and selected 103 that weighed 139.4 - 139.7gr for target use. Another 50 or so outside those weights were set aside for load testing. Target #1 from my first session with 140s:

8.23.21asmall.jpg

And target 2:

8.23.21bsmall.jpg

The 140s were heat treated, lubed with Xlox 2500+, and seated to touch the throat, actually, they were seated long and set back by throat.

Shuz suggested I run a second test with a batch of powder coated 140s, half sized and half not, results were similar to non-PC'd. All boolits shot were gas checked.

I have the chono data if warranted. Am open to any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations.
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
.266 bullets should be a safe bet.
The bullet holes in your target seem to be slightly oval. It seems your bullets aren’t completely stabilized. Maybe increase the load a little bit, or maybe try a larger dose of a slower powder?
 
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todd

Well-Known Member
.266 bullets should be a safe bet.
The bullet holes in your target seem to be slightly oval. It seems your bullets aren’t completely stabilized. Maybe increase the load a little bit, or maybe try a larger dose of a slower powder?

what he said.
 
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Sevenfan

Member
I know some gas checks are separating from boolits as I have imprints on my skyscreen uprights. I "think" that may be causing ovals on the target.

My last batch with powder coated boolits, sized (.266) and unsized (fat .268), over 17 & 18gr 5744.

17gr sized avg velocity 1842fps, SD 15.3; unsized avg velocity 1846fps SD 7.3
18gr sized " " 1926fps, SD 7.5; unsized " " 1923fps, SD9.8

Targets from above loads, photo, not scanned as my scanner flattens boolit holes. One round from gp3 was at least 2" left and above POA:

gps1&2.jpg


gps3&4.jpg

Gp1 is 17gr sized, gp2 is 18gr unsized, gp3 is sized 18gr, & gp 4 is 17gr unsized. Green arrows point to what I think may be gas checks separating from boolit.

I record my shooting sessions, and can ID each round shot per string if anyone wants to know.
 

Ian

Notorious member
What size is your rifle's throat entrance, and what size is your neck expander?

I looked up the minimum chamber spec and it shows .2640" for the groove and a parallel freebore of .2645", with a +.002" tolerance. The neck to freebore transition is 45⁰. That's a tough row to hoe.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
your bullets ain't stable.
maybe the checks are getting jacked up coming through the case neck, I don't know your release tolerances, nor when the bullet is during the sequence of pressure timing, but I wouldn't put money against that happening with the seating depth.
I also wouldn't put money against some riveting going on even with the number-2 alloy and the short jump you got going on.
normally i'd recommend a longer jump, but you probably won't be helping yourself out none.


anyway I'm pretty sure we were heading there in a couple more posts with the questions Ian just asked so I just jumped ahead.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'd revisit the 266673, powder-coated and sized for a scuff-fit in the freebore. If necessary, size the front part of the nose for a barely visible engraving of the lands. Use a cast bullet neck expanding spud that's the same diameter as your bullet. NOE should have expanders and nose-sizing tooling in the diameters you need. The 673 ought to be good for at least 2000 fps in your setup and shouldn't need more than the gas check poking into the powder space.
 

shuz

Active Member
Phil,
Id try driving some of those powder coated boolits at close to the velocity that you get good accuracy with jacketed. I believe that the real quick twist of your rifle is the biggest issue here.
Shuz
 

Sevenfan

Member
Ian and Fiver you're asking for good detail, some I understand, much I do not. Please keep in mind I cast my first bullets about 6mos ago. Can't answer with regard to my rifle's throat entrance as I've not yet done a pound cast of the chamber. At present, I'm using fired, unsized brass so neck expansion shouldn't be a factor.

I have no clue as to some of information mentioned, riveting, determining where bullet is in sequence of pressure timing, release tolerances (neck tension?), nose sizing the -673s, etc.

Am relatively certain my rifle is short throated, I'll seat a jacketed bullet base out and provide that measurement in addition to validating seating depth to the lands with both the -469 and -673.

My objective isn't necessarily to make my 6.5CM shoot cast, it was, instead, a stop gap I hoped would let me participate while I get my '91 Mauser set up to shoot in the local CBA matches.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Even GC'd the base is way below the shoulder, nose size to get a semi-'land rider' nose. Seat with only the GC (barely) below the shoulder. Temporary solution, size small and tape off upper bands, PC base to get proper size. You have 40% fill and ~20k psi so it's not the pressure but GC wonky leaving the shoulder.
 
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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
I’ve no doubt it is possible to get good accuracy with a 6,5 CM and cast bullets. But I’m afraid, though, it might be a difficult enterprise with the bullet currently at your disposal. It is probably designed for more «cavernous» military chambers/ throats. It would be worthwile to try a little increase in velocity, however, to see if accuracy improves with increased stability. It is not necessarily the case, but worth a try.

NOE has a design (266-140) made for the creedmoor. This shoots well in my x55’s, it wouldn’t surprise me if it worked very well in your rifle as well. It has a very «adaptive», self-aligning nose shape. It also has very high BC for a 140grs bullet, should be possible to stretch the range a bit. Let’s hope it is back in stock soon.

Best of luck!
 

Sevenfan

Member
Has been a while since I posted on this venture. Had basically given up on it but the odd boolit holes and velocity kept eating at me. I read something posted elsewhere by, I believe, Larry Gibson, that made the smoldering thought in my mind ignite, boolit rpm was too fast something I had supected early on.

I dropped powder charges of I4198 and A5744 to 16gr and ran a test, voila, groups vs patterns! I4198 velocities were closer to 1600fps whereas A5744 ran 50 - 60fps faster. I chose the I4198 load because that was closer to my desired velocity.

It has been a few months since making these changes, and have competed with my 6.5CM in 2 matches after the changes which also involved changing the scope to a vintage B&L 24x target model. At the June match I shot 5-shot groups that went .995" & 1.005" and my second 10 shot group measured .882"...



and last week my first two 5-shot groups were sub-MOA so there is hope yet!





My efforts went south after those groups due to a technical glitch in my loading process that blew my conentration the remainder of the match. Have resolved that glitch and I look forward to better results in Aug.

This still with the 266469 and Lyman #2.
 
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MW65

Wetside, Oregon
Nice!!! Have the 673, and have a handful already cast. Need to get expanders and g/c for fun trigger time. Enjoy!!
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Oh boy. This should be interesting.

Did it occur that perhaps it wasn't a case of the "rpm being too fast" and that it was instead a matter of the dynamic fit not being optimum for that bullet? Don't get me wrong, glad you found some good results, but the "rpm limit theory" ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 

Sevenfan

Member
I can't honestly say, but do know this, at velocities in excess of 1700fps (went as high as 1880fps) I could not get them to perform at all.

When I read those comments (have them somewhere on my bench) the light went on and positive results were immediate. My first session after dropping to 16grs shot in early March was instant and dramatic. My initial test with 3ea 5 shot groups with both powders produced a worst group of 1.746" (4 clustered .725") using 5744 while my best group of 1.329" (4 clustered .732") came with I4198.

I repeated the test a few times afterward stretching to 10shot groups and my rifle showed a definite preference for the 4198 load. I also noted 5744 would toss a flier or two whereas 4198 did not.

At least I'm having some fun now vs pure frustration. ;)
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
My several 223 rifles say the rpm thing is hogwash. 240,000+ rpm shooting 1.5" groups say otherwise. That is better than some of the match ammo out there in jacketed. I have not tried it in my White Oak upper yet but my other barrels that are 556 chambers with 1-8 and 1-9 shoot very well.

My 308w shot very well at 2300+ fps with a 10 twist too. Yes if I backed it down to 2000 fps it shot sub MOA but I wanted faster. 1.25-1.5" is good enough to do anything I want.

Get the right bullet and things get a lot easier. Or do as Larry does and get the slowest twist made to make it shoot. Or run your bullets really slow.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Get the right bullet and things get a lot easier. Or do as Larry does and get the slowest twist made to make it shoot. Or run your bullets really slow.
savin some typin.

see the problem we got here is one of take it or leave it designs.
throw a bunch of lymans down range and your gonna get what you got, there ain't no way around it, and it makes the RPM theory look like it's set in stone.

the real deal is to find the correct bullet design for your rifle.
get it started straight to the center line of the barrel, and accelerate it without damaging it.
you can do all the other stuff and tear your hair out, or you can go back to step one.

and then start making steps forward.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I can't honestly say, but do know this, at velocities in excess of 1700fps (went as high as 1880fps) I could not get them to perform at all.

When I read those comments (have them somewhere on my bench) the light went on and positive results were immediate. My first session after dropping to 16grs shot in early March was instant and dramatic. My initial test with 3ea 5 shot groups with both powders produced a worst group of 1.746" (4 clustered .725") using 5744 while my best group of 1.329" (4 clustered .732") came with I4198.

I repeated the test a few times afterward stretching to 10shot groups and my rifle showed a definite preference for the 4198 load. I also noted 5744 would toss a flier or two whereas 4198 did not.

At least I'm having some fun now vs pure frustration. ;)
It's not the rpm's, it's the pressure and the bullet. Larrys "RPM theory" started, IIRC, with 6.5x55 Swede Mausers that have something like a 1-8.5 twist. Yeah, it's harder to get a fast twist to shoot cast, but it's not a show stopper. Listen to Fiver, Tom, or Ian if he comments. Fit, it's all about fit.