My quest for speed and accuracy with powder-coated cast bullets

fiver

Well-Known Member
that stuff is tough.
you'd have to literally chip it away with a hammer or chisel.
part of the powders final test is flattening a bullet with a hammer to make sure the PC sticks.

yep, run some of those 63's I recommended.
if they won't shoot, or worse follow the pattern, you need to dig down into the rifle.
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
I tried with and without PC coated bases on a PB. Didn't see any difference. Well except the uncoated base gets gas cut at the gas port and gave me a circle of MOA @ 100. I've gone back to coated base, heavy bullets pretty much leave base flat and sizing dies the rest. For my 308W I GC with a 311 sizer, coat and then 310 (proper) sizer.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
just to pull a little perspective for everyone following.
part of the problem here is a dimensional one.
the MX bullet was not built to drawn specifications, and adding powder to the LEE adds about .002 to a part of the bullet that should be in the .219 area.
normally not an issue in a 5.56 throat you actually want some size right there.

however the nose [or drive band] is a [I would say the] critical part of the metal to lead interface and that dimension really does need to be close to .219.
it is the part that engages the end of the throat while the base of the bullet is just free from the case.
a little too much here and it kind of backs the process up.

in driving or racing terms think about hitting the apex on a corner from a wide versus narrow swing in starting point.
the wide start allows you to straighten the front wheels and aim straight through to the other side where the road is straight again and not have to jump the curb.
the narrow entrance forces you to jerk the wheel left and right to make the corner corrections scrubbing off some speed and making you wait and wait to use the gas pedal again.
 
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Intheshop

Banned
Ian,watch the powder fouling down the barrel... try to get a handle on it's behavior. Also look at the case neck's carbon patterns.

Tangent alert.... I pulled the ejector out of the new ADL 223. The thing is about 3 times too stiff. It'll stay out till a Ernie's "soft" can be ordered. In my rifle,it's so stiff the empty cases were bent on extracting.I saw groups move a bit today with it out..... no other changes.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Bullets are testing 21 bhn already, looks like the heat treat took this time.

I think I'll try one or two more groups with the MX3 bullets once they settle down, maybe try sanding the bases, and if that doesn't settle down the groups to at least solid MOA, then I'm going to take Fiver's advice and work with jaxketed handloads for a bit to see what she'll really do. The bore was a bad copper fouler and didn't shoot very well with factory jax in the first place, so it likely will need some work which may include some lapping bullets, bedding the barrel at the front of the stock, and swapping the Diamondback for the T-36 as a last resort. Also, I see some wool applicator pads in the future to help keep the stock finish from sticking to the bags. I really want to know what hardening the bullets and cleaning the bases will do right now, before I go monkeying with the rifle any more.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I try to shoot every gun I get with at least one factory load (where that is practical and not a hopeless redundancy) just to get an idea of what to expect from one . I've found in a couple of cases that it would have been $50 well spent over all of the head banging . A 1903A3 comes to mind ............it was probably the only bad one ever built I shimmed it , relieved it , shot it hard , shot it easy , even tried GI ammo of it's era ......... Yeah lost cause .
 

Ian

Notorious member
It was a solid 1.5"/5-shot rifle with both Federal and Winchester 55 FMJ...at 75 yards :rolleyes: It did a lot better with some 50-grain varmint loads, but I only shot two or three groups with those. The M1A is a solid 4" shooter at 100 yards with several different kinds of 7.62 ball ammo and factory .308, it has shot far better with the cast bullet loads that it likes than any factory ammo I've found so far.
 
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freebullet

Guest
That's alot to take in..
Seems the Lee fit better w/pc. Maybe a 175-95 might do better in that?

Don't know twist on mvp. Favorite Jax to try -varmagedon 40hp fb. Outstanding in 1to9. H335 or varget if ya don't mind the slow meter. Second for longer shots 69smk, powder same.
For cast I have the mp 75nato second run mold. I don't honestly have time to cast any soon, but if ya wanna try them let me know, we can figure something out.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Thanks, FB, I'll keep that in mind. I tried to minimize the data dump but there's a whole summer of shooting to condense and I left out a lot of stuff that didn't seem relevant.

The MVP has a 9" rate of twist. I have the .22 nato mould on loan, must be a first run because it's .225" and 63 grains dressed. Been looking at the 75 that's in stock but idk how it will stabilize. The light one shoots great with no coating, but leads the can like everything else and so far I haven't been able to make it group well at all when powder-coated. The other problem is it will chamber with just the gas check in the case, and that's about .200 too long for the magazine.

I put together another ten cartridges with the 21 bhn, coated MX3 bullets and 21.6 grains of 3031 last night, if it doesn't rain tomorrow evening after work they will go downrange.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Today's target. Got some trailing-edge leading the whole way down the barrel, about twice as bad as normal. No lead showed up on a tight, dry patch, but the push through felt grittier than normal. It was also more consistent than normal.

Shot #2 was a flyer, but I'm pretty sure my lightweight Hoppes front rest is causing some of the other problems. Half of them into 3/4", at least I'm back on paper again.

20180920_184022.jpg
 
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freebullet

Guest
That's lookin good. Imagine if the mold dropped the size ya wanted. Hmm.....
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
something is wrong.
bedding or scope or trigger pull, or mag well rubbing ,,,[head placement?] something.
the only flyer there is the high one [#-6?]
the others are bouncing back and forth, [2 group thing] and that isn't the ignition stringing like it looks like in the other pics.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I really think it's the front rest grabbing the forearm and rocking the little Hoppe's rest back on its leg. Before each shot, I push the rifle forward until the leg facing me lifts, then pull back until it settles back down, pull a little more to see which way the crosshairs rise, and adjust and repeat until they rise in the middle, then find the "rest" position that levels the crosshairs on the bullseye and squeeze off the shot. The barrel whips and wiggles like a fishing pole and after the shot, the crosshairs come to a rest in various places so I know my follow-through sucks because the rifle isn't able to slide on the front bag. I work hard to keep the compression on the rear bag consistent with my head in the same place, gently but firmly holding the buttstock down. Last night I decided to change scopes so I can see the target better (in the shade, shooting at dusk after work, and this will only get worse later in the year), and I'm going to change the front rest to something more solid and with a bag that fits the wide forearm better.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
that will do it.
I use one of those orange triangle footed front rests too.
I forget the bag I have on there is getting old and likes to flop around a bit sometimes.
probably should do the duct tape repair but then I lose most of the ability for it to nestle different fore arm shapes.
I also seem to have a bad habit of letting the sling stud bump or suck into the frame itself.
 

Ian

Notorious member
The original, brown suede bag was ok but it bit the dust years ago. I got one of those Caldwell forearm rest bags (with the Velcro straps) on the plate now, but it's the sporter profile so this MVP doesn't fit at all. I tried putting towels over it but nothing really works. After last night's shooting, and I think I adjusted the alignment of the rear leg about halfway through the group, I'm starting to think the POI walking around is relative to the alignment of the rear leg with bore center-line. I'd put one leg out front, but it really rocks back too much then (like a bipod will if you don't load it properly) and gives me high flyers. I think a couple of 4x8x16 solid cement blocks and a cloth bag full of shot will get used next time. If I had the shack built I could just leave all that out there, I only use the light Hoppe's rest because it and the Protektor rear sand bag will fit in a small, 50-cal ammo can and I can leave them out in the weather under the bench. Mebbe I'll swap the Hoppe's rest out of the ammo can for the bag of shot and leave the blocks on the bench.
 

Hawk

North Central Texas
You just need to get yourself a screw Jack and bolt it down to the bench, like Ben does!
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ian can make some extension legs to make a wider base. I’m actually a bit amazed Ian hasn’t cobbled something together already.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I actually have several sets of plans sketched out on various notepads floating about, all waiting for the shack because I don't want to make three trips to the range just to set up for 10 shots. The screw jack is a good idea but I built one already and it had a few thousandths wiggle side to side, no good for 100 yard+ shooting or other rifles I shoot that have a lot more recoil than this 5.56.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Once the shack is done you could have a more permanent system in place