My quest for speed and accuracy with powder-coated cast bullets
- Thread starter Ian
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freebullet
Guest
If your pc is undercooked it will take 1hr per inch of barrel to clean. Lot of folks myself included, learned the hard way, the temp on the oven dial can be off by 50 degrees or so.
It is finicky at best about seating depth. Sometimes increasing the diameter creates issues. If required to seat deeper it can reduce charge capacity & increase pressure.
Most application methods take much longer than tumble lubes to apply, bake, size, & work a load with.
Neck tension, crimp, ect matters as much or more than lead.
The other site does have some good info but, alota over the top claims were made over there. Beware of that.
Chandler
Member
I appreciate the honesty freebullet. There always seems to be a caveat as the old saying goes. None the less, it seems to have attracted a following and I am way behind the curve here. It would be helpful to know the pitfalls and hard lessons. Moly had them too. Done properly, some innovations are remarkable but the inverse happens too.
RBHarter
West Central AR
CB has a thread probably getting close to 5000 posts for HyTek coating .
Harbor Freight Red is ok .
Smoke4320 sells good powder that works well .
Some colors work better than others .
Cross linked polymers work way better than epoxy .
The jury is still out on presize vs post size .
Gas check before you coat .
The wetted powder tumble seems to be dead .
Nope doesn't seem to matter much if they stand fall or touch .
Water cooled to restore BHN is done .
I haven't read anything regarding any shooting past 200 yd .
That would cover the high points .
Harbor Freight Red is ok .
Smoke4320 sells good powder that works well .
Some colors work better than others .
Cross linked polymers work way better than epoxy .
The jury is still out on presize vs post size .
Gas check before you coat .
The wetted powder tumble seems to be dead .
Nope doesn't seem to matter much if they stand fall or touch .
Water cooled to restore BHN is done .
I haven't read anything regarding any shooting past 200 yd .
That would cover the high points .
Sig556r
Active Member
FLT (Full Lead Taco) has bunch of videos on a wide array of calibers using shake-n-baked PC bullets hitting steel up to 500 yards. He's also mastered utilizing no-lube-groove boolits (I think he designed some for NOE) in his videos.
Ian
Notorious member
One issue with PC is you have to un-learn a lot to make it work. That's difficult for many people. The new crowd wants to blast rapid-fire, skip the smoke, skip the time and sticky mess of lube, skip the leading, skip having to pay attention so much to bullet fit, shoot cast in black rifles, shoot cast in suppressors, shoot cast at indoor ranges, skip worrying about lube melting in their hot car and ruining the powder, and like being able to make pink bullets for their girlfriends/wives/daughters for the appeal, or "zombie-killer" green bullets to impress their tacticool range buddies. Most of that happens to apply to me......even though I am a traditionalist at heart.
There are some very practical uses for powder-coated cast bullets, and I like to exploit every advantage I can.
There are some very practical uses for powder-coated cast bullets, and I like to exploit every advantage I can.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
I can't really say I have experienced any PC fouling in all of my testing with PC coating this year however I have had some lead fouling show up in a few rifles from bullets that had tipped over ...touched each other or had the powder rubbed thin on a part of the bullet before baking!
I can't see how any bullet that is laying down or touching another can be used accurately in a rifle! Now I shoot low velocity and I have noticed it so I can't even imagine what would happen if they were shot 2000 fps or better.
A few of those bullets down my bores lead to scrubbing leading out of the barrels
Ian
Notorious member
There are going to be defects. Whether or not they matter depends on, well, if it matters. Clumpy bits and lumps on the noses can be an issue, as well as sagging of the coating to the low side of the bullet as it flows, often leaving a heavy/thick spot in each lube groove. I always pick with needlenose pliers and stand bullets to bake because it isn't that much trouble to do, gives me something to do (loading a tray) as the previous tray is baking for 20-25 minutes. For short, stumpy pistol bullets, I doubt anyone could prove that defects from baking in a big clump matter to how the bullets shoot, but sometimes not getting the most even coating possible DOES matter.
These are the .22 caliber ones Ive been shooting at up to 2900 fps and a best 10-shot group of 1-1/8":
These are the .22 caliber ones Ive been shooting at up to 2900 fps and a best 10-shot group of 1-1/8":
waco
Springfield, Oregon
A few here and there. Think about how much bare lead goes down your bore when you just put lube in the grooves.....
I don't think it matters all that much.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
waco, granted your bullets look pretty good ( coating seems much thicker then I get, however)
I guess I'm like Ian & fiver ...can't stand to let them tip over. Ian I see those MX bullets look like the ones I'm also shooting in my 223 ( w/ Eastwood Ford Blue)
The problem comes from trying to stand 60 tall NOE 105 gr 243 bullets up on their bases and then get the tray into the oven! I have seldom made it happen! To solve this I put them nose down in a circular perforated metal alum plate. Yes the noses stick but the damage there doesn't touch the bore & since I shoot under 1500 fps I don't think I'm seeing nose defect issues in my groups.
My coating technique is the latest one mentioned by JonB on CB forum: aleter a 2 minute swirl there is a 30 sec up and down motion to nock off some excess the open container pick bullets with tweezers stand on bases ( if some look a bit heavy with powder I drop them from about 4" high in the plastic lid to knock of excess
My dump over problem comes when I have to slide the pan with standing bullets into my hot oven
seem the cold pan on the hot rack likes to hang up and stick sliding it in!
I don't put any lube on PC coated bullets so a lead exposed area sometimes leads
I guess I'm like Ian & fiver ...can't stand to let them tip over. Ian I see those MX bullets look like the ones I'm also shooting in my 223 ( w/ Eastwood Ford Blue)
The problem comes from trying to stand 60 tall NOE 105 gr 243 bullets up on their bases and then get the tray into the oven! I have seldom made it happen! To solve this I put them nose down in a circular perforated metal alum plate. Yes the noses stick but the damage there doesn't touch the bore & since I shoot under 1500 fps I don't think I'm seeing nose defect issues in my groups.
My coating technique is the latest one mentioned by JonB on CB forum: aleter a 2 minute swirl there is a 30 sec up and down motion to nock off some excess the open container pick bullets with tweezers stand on bases ( if some look a bit heavy with powder I drop them from about 4" high in the plastic lid to knock of excess
My dump over problem comes when I have to slide the pan with standing bullets into my hot oven
seem the cold pan on the hot rack likes to hang up and stick sliding it in!
I don't put any lube on PC coated bullets so a lead exposed area sometimes leads
Ian
Notorious member
JW, sounds like you might need to polish your oven racks and slides. My oven guides have a dip in the middle, it will dump bullets over if I don't have the tray perfectly level going in so I have to go very slow and carefully. The ones that are SUPER fun to bake standing up are the Lee 309-230-5R bullets...not only are they long, but they have a boat tail. I still manage, as long as the foil is very smooth and flat.
Intel6
Active Member
I am also one of those people who has to stand up their bullets. Now since I am only doing large cal bullets right now it is easy but I am going to try and come up with some sort of wire mesh grate to help stand up my smaller cal bullets. I know it is only cosmetic but I like the smooth PC coating of bullets that have been stood up.
Below are Two smooth sided .458" bullets just for coating from a NOE mould I got for shooting in my .458 SOCOM. I also shoot the one on the left in my 45-70 lever gun (that is what the crimp groove is for) and the one on the right in my Ruger #1H in .460 Weatherby Magnum.
Below are loaded .500 S&W rounds with PC bullets. The Two on the left are the Lee 440 gr. mould but the Two on the right is another NOE mould made just for coating. It casts a 700 gr. solid or with the deepest hollow point pin it is 570 grs. Once again, nice a smooth coating.
Below are Two smooth sided .458" bullets just for coating from a NOE mould I got for shooting in my .458 SOCOM. I also shoot the one on the left in my 45-70 lever gun (that is what the crimp groove is for) and the one on the right in my Ruger #1H in .460 Weatherby Magnum.
Below are loaded .500 S&W rounds with PC bullets. The Two on the left are the Lee 440 gr. mould but the Two on the right is another NOE mould made just for coating. It casts a 700 gr. solid or with the deepest hollow point pin it is 570 grs. Once again, nice a smooth coating.
BHuij
Active Member
Just spent a couple of hours reading through this thread. Frankly I'm amazed you're pulling ~2MOA from cast lead 22 cal bullets at 2800+ FPS, ESPECIALLY using ACWW alloy.
In my own .22 cal tests through my AR thus far, the superiority of powder coating vs lube for my own purposes has showed up easily on paper. My best results so far have come from bullets that were cast, sized/checked, powder coated, and then oven treated and quenched for an age-hardened BHN around 35. My problem is definitely fit; I'm using the Lee 55 grain FN and I think there's just all sorts of room around the bullet in my chamber, there's no way it's going into the bore straight and concentric. But at least I'm not getting any leading.
Full Lead Taco is a great guy, turns out we live really close to each other, and he gave me some really hard foundry type ingots to try hardening up my .223 AR bullets. I haven't had to try that yet, but it's nice to have the option if I can't solve my accuracy issues by using a better mold.
I also can't seem to get decent results without standing my bullets up, not touching each other. I ended up actually CADing up and 3D printing a tray where I can put my bullets, nose-down after they come out of the shake 'n bake tub. Then I put the metal tray for the oven on top of the 3D printed tray, flip the whole thing over in one smooth motion, and carefully remove the plastic tray. Voila, 150 bullets spaced perfectly and standing on their bases. I do the same thing for my 9mm pistol bullets, but I just use empty commercial ammo trays instead of a custom 3D printed one.
Looking forward to seeing what else you can do here Ian, but honestly it kinda seems like maybe your problem is the gun. You fixed the bedding and harmonics stuff, but I'm guessing your barrel needs some love if it fouls that bad with copper. Can't wait to see if things tighten up after you get some fire lapping bullets downrange.
In my own .22 cal tests through my AR thus far, the superiority of powder coating vs lube for my own purposes has showed up easily on paper. My best results so far have come from bullets that were cast, sized/checked, powder coated, and then oven treated and quenched for an age-hardened BHN around 35. My problem is definitely fit; I'm using the Lee 55 grain FN and I think there's just all sorts of room around the bullet in my chamber, there's no way it's going into the bore straight and concentric. But at least I'm not getting any leading.
Full Lead Taco is a great guy, turns out we live really close to each other, and he gave me some really hard foundry type ingots to try hardening up my .223 AR bullets. I haven't had to try that yet, but it's nice to have the option if I can't solve my accuracy issues by using a better mold.
I also can't seem to get decent results without standing my bullets up, not touching each other. I ended up actually CADing up and 3D printing a tray where I can put my bullets, nose-down after they come out of the shake 'n bake tub. Then I put the metal tray for the oven on top of the 3D printed tray, flip the whole thing over in one smooth motion, and carefully remove the plastic tray. Voila, 150 bullets spaced perfectly and standing on their bases. I do the same thing for my 9mm pistol bullets, but I just use empty commercial ammo trays instead of a custom 3D printed one.
Looking forward to seeing what else you can do here Ian, but honestly it kinda seems like maybe your problem is the gun. You fixed the bedding and harmonics stuff, but I'm guessing your barrel needs some love if it fouls that bad with copper. Can't wait to see if things tighten up after you get some fire lapping bullets downrange.
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Ian
Notorious member
The rifle would hold MOA @ near 2600 fps using the MP 63-grain NATO bullet, without coating, using ACWW @ ~12.5 bhn and LBT soft lube. If it weren't leading the suppressor I would have stopped right there. I didn't have good luck making them shoot when coated. The Lee bullets, powder coated and checked, did about 4" at 100, so I agree the fit isn't quite good enough, plus in this long throat they had a long jump to the rifling. I have two other .22 moulds but opted for the MX because it was the only thing available that would come close to fitting the throat of the MVP.