Old School Scope Mount question - Winchester Mdl 75

oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
So... There is a local "precision 22 match comp." Shoot to 200 yds. Of COURSE - all the yahoos shoot fancy/expensive/new-fangled stuff... AND tell me I need to "Buy In" with all new just to shoot/compete! And, then... there is ME! AND, I would love to shoot what I have (and don't want to "buy into" all new gear), AND - JUST want to shoot for FUN!

What I have is a ~1942 vintage Winchester Mdl 75 Target rifle. Was FILs (someone gave it to him/he was not a small bore competitor/this one is set up for 3 position 50' peeps/VERY nice Redfields!).

I think I can leave the peeps on and scope will be above them/no issue (removal of peeps is no big deal tho). The "competitors" tell me I need a dial turret scope etc for 200 yds - EH..... But again, vintage ME/would LOVE to show up with an old school Unertl! Sad part is, looks like I will basically pay same $ for the Unertl and rings (bases seem cheap/reasonable/~$50ish perset) as I would buying all modern gear, including the rifle...! I also see where looks like (Steve Earle) I can get modern rails to mount modern rings/scope - but just dang... that kinda sucks and sucks the fun out of it all for me!

So... Anyone have a 75/52/513/40x set up vintage style with a scope, or recommendations? Am I basically stuck dropping $1000 to scope the 75 with a vintage Unertl and rings? And if so, and going to put the time/effort $ in - would I just be better off to go new/modern if I want to shoot this (in which case, I will most likely pass...)?

PS: Hope all this makes some semblance of sense...
 
J

Jeff H

NW Ohio
About twenty years ago, I shot pins with a small group of folks who took their "game" very seriously and had the gear to prove it.

I'd show up, pay my money and proceed to loose time after time, using a $500, box-stock Kimber "Custom Target" 1911 45.

They took my money. I had fun.

I also got pretty good with that "iron-sighted" auto under some terrible lighting conditions too, and knew that I'd be much more likely to be carrying that, should an unfriendly encounter occur, than any one of them would be likely to be carrying their "game guns" all decked out with bulky "dot" sights and a bunch of expensive custom tuning.

I can't help with the scope/mount question, but the matter of just having fun with something which makes it more of a challenge is something I have some experience with.

Oh, and the money they won wouldn't touch the money they spent on a different gun for each class, all decked out and all the ammo they used to practice. My "practice" was on deck, shooting in the match. I always cleared the table, but a bit slower and sometimes using a sixth shot for the coup de grace on a pin which was acting out dramatic, B-Western, extended death throes, spinning on the back edge of the table.
 
RicinYakima

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
First question, what is the target? 100 yard small bore NRA? Black scoring rings? One inch red dots at 200 yards?
 
oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Ian said:
I'm no help. If it was me, I'd probably show up with my 10-22 and a 6-14x50 AO Bushnell with some beer can shims under the front of the rail and give them a run for their money.
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Kinda what I want to do, albeit 75 years "ago!"

And/Also - the local LGS owner/shoot sponsor - wants to keep telling me I can't "compete" unless I buy all new rifle/gear/scope/gadgets/ammo HE is selling! I REALLY would LOVE to put a vintage rig together and 'compete!' Give a damn to win - but just to finish in the top 50% would be a 'win' for me!
 
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oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Jeff H said:
About twenty years ago, I shot pins with a small group of folks who took their "game" very seriously and had the gear to prove it.
Click to expand...

Cpl yrs back, range had an extended comp. Multiple shoots/rolled up score. Had a $500 gift cert on the line. They even brought in a ringer (non-member/I am a member/was originally intended as members only). I won in the last day - against the ringer - in spades. And I was using my 35 yr old Ruger MK II with a junk box red dot. I LOVED IT! AND - also why I want to shoot my antique in the precision rifle match!
 
oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
"what is the target?"

seen pics... ~3-5" bulls I think.

I did see a set of targets/group/100 yds that were basically 5 shot touching hole string. And (tickles me) shot by the LGS owner who sponsors the shoot! And kinda why I would LOVE to show up old school and school a few of the "gear guys!"
 
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Bret4207

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
My Win 52A wears a Lyman Jr Targetspot 6X on the factory blocks. I bought the rifle for $5.00, (Yes, that's not a misprint), and I paid about $175 for the scope off Ebay 18-20 years ago. I don't know if it's a scope to use on a small bull at 200 yds if everyone else is using 24X. OTOH, maybe it would make seeing the wind flags easier through the scopes peripherals.

My biggest concern would be finding ammo for a 22LR in quantities large enough to put in the practice time you'd need, in a particular brand/type/lot that shoots good enough for 200 yds.

I love your idea though. I was at a trap shoot as a spectator several decades back and an old guy in jeans and tee shirt with a cheapy Mossberg 500 and what sonded like 3" duck loads was cleaning everyones clock!
 
RicinYakima

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Shot 200 yard CBA military matches with a 6X Fecker for a few years. It was OK with the 6 inch black bullseye, but I would say about 10X for a three inch. Only because it is hard to square the black bullseye with crosshairs. It would be easy with a "Dot" and 6 0'clock hold.

The other factor is the line of sight is so high that canting becomes a real issue without good technique.
 
J

Jeff H

NW Ohio
oscarflytyer said:
Cpl yrs back, range had an extended comp. Multiple shoots/rolled up score. Had a $500 gift cert on the line. They even brought in a ringer (non-member/I am a member/was originally intended as members only). I won in the last day - against the ringer - in spades. And I was using my 35 yr old Ruger MK II with a junk box red dot. I LOVED IT! AND - also why I want to shoot my antique in the precision rifle match!
Click to expand...

I love that story.

I feel good just making them nervous, but actually winning is golden.
 
RicinYakima

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I shot a B&L for a couple of years. Good scopes if the plastic parts are good. I have original articles and data from the 1950's. FWIW
 
Snakeoil

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
A decent Unertl or Lyman will cost you at least $600. I would think your rifle is already drilled and tapped for the correct blocks set at 7.2 inches. Yes, the prices for these scopes are closer to $900 on fleabay. But that is where the stupid money shops. Don't forget that Fecker and Lichert are also nice scopes. Redfield also made a nice externally adjustable scope back in the day.

That Tasco is not bad. I think I'd rather have that over a Chinese Malcolm. The Malcolm scopes are actually okay, but the mounts kinda suck.

If the match is shot at one yardage and that's it, then a scope that is easily adjustable is not a hard requirement, but it sure does help when the wind, mirage and light changes mess with you. If you do go modern scope and don't want to drop a bundle, consider a Mueller. Will cost you about $260 for an 8x32 with turret adjustments that are very easy to use. I have one on my 541S. I've won matches with it and we shoot out to 200 yds with a 300 yd offhand tie breaker. But we also shoot 3 or 4 yardages during a match so an easily adjustable scope is required.

As far as power goes, a 10X is about as low as I would suggest. Yes, you can go lower, but I'm thinking old eyes. I just put a 10X Unertl on my 52C. But I also own a 15X Lyman STS and a 20 Unertl and may put those on the rifle just for fun.

A word of caution if you go with a Unertl or similar. You might run out of scope adjustment if you do not use the correct blocks. My 52C has the original Winchester blocks (a B and an L) and I just made it to 200 with 7 minutes of adjustment left. I made a 0.062 shim to put under the rear block. That should get me out to 300.

Target .22 ammo is available. It's the cheap, plinking stuff that cannot be found. And it is worth the money for the good stuff if you want to shoot out to 200 yds and beat the boys with the new designer equipment. I shoot all old guns. Just won a 30 round match out to 400 yds this Sunday shooting my 03 that was made in 1921 with my 20X Unertl on it. There was another shooter there with a new Tikka in .308 with a very good scope and he came in second. These are cast bullet matches. See, right back on topic.;)
 
oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
"consider a Mueller"

Never heard of them!

Also - the game I mentioned in my original post is not the only one 'in town.' Another local match is probably a much better one for my vintage setup desires. 50-100 yds. Classes. MUCH more reasonable and much less "gear" driven I think. And I know the match director. Prob direction I will go. And not have to do the gear dash! MIGHT try to shoot with the old skool 50' target peeps, but prob go to a scope.

And yes, I am guessing, based on offerings, that bases may be the key to scope setup!
 
B

BudHyett

Active Member

Frank Elliott in Southern Oregon makes a rail type adaptor for internal adjustment scopes that sits on the Unertl bases. I've got four of them for my two CPA Stevens 44 1/2 and two BSA International rifles. Easy to convert back and forth since I want to shoot CBA, ASSRA, and ASSRA Traditional that limits one to external adjustment scopes.​

Frank Elliott Email: frnkeore@aol.com​

 
Snakeoil

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
One last comment regarding old vs. Modern scopes. Krieger only trusts external adjusting scopes like Unertls for proving barrel accuracy.
 
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