Quick Bullet Hardness Question

fiver

Well-Known Member
yep.
his size plus the coating is making me wonder how easily they are chambering, and I suspect the bullet is being damaged right at the end of the neck.
there or being re-sized in the loading process, or a combination of the two.

I know to get the better groups in the A-R I had to work the neck tension and case fitment pretty hard.
 

Bliksem

Active Member
Trying to increase hardness without paying close attention to all of the other things that will mess things up is what Is biting here. Having reloaded rounds with distorted bullets in a distorted case with probably excessive runout is not the way to accuracy. There are many helpful hints in the previous posts, follow them and achieve your goal. Zoom out and see all of the small things that truly matter as being successful with the 556 in a MSR is probably the PhD in cast reloading.
 

Dimner

Named Man
man oh man, thank you all for the great comments. Lot's to unpack, but I got what I was looking for. Which is that variable to work on first, and that looks like revisiting bullet size and not worrying about hardness any longer. Not sure if I mentioned it, this is my first project with powder coating. So telltale signs might not be obvious to me with PC issues.

I should say, the rounds did all chamber and eject just fine. I ran at least a dozen, probably close to 20 rounds from a magazine while at the range. Manually operating the bolt both from the charge handle and letting the bolt slam home. No major feeding marks and no PC peeling. I went through this step because at first, I had two coats of PC on my bullets, and well ... as you can guess, those suckers did not chamber well at all. Ejecting the round left the bullet in the throat!

I'm going to run a test of my best powder charge/accuracy to date and try a combination the sizing and PC combinations.

Meaning:

Gas check and size @ 225 -> PC and Ice Quench - Final resize at 225 - Using a 0.226/0.222 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 225 -> PC and Ice Quench - Final resize at 225 - Using a 0.228/0.224 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 226 -> PC and Ice Quench - Final resize at 226 - Using a 0.226/0.222 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 226 -> PC and Ice Quench - Final resize at 226 - Using a 0.228/0.224 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 225 -> PC and Ice Quench - No final resize - Using a 0.226/0.222 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 225 -> PC and Ice Quench - No final resize - Using a 0.228/0.224 expander neck plug
Gas check and size @ 226 -> PC and Ice Quench - No final resize (which is what I have been doing, but will keep it as a control group) Using a 0.226/0.222 expander neck plug

(PC @400* -22Mins)

All necks are annealed, shoulder bumped 0.002 using a FL resizing die, then expanded using the expander plug detailed above


Ian, thank you for the lengthy post. I have those ideas written down for future testing.

Let's talk neck expanders a second though. I'm a little confused as to why the Lee expander with an NOE plug would give a different result as an RCBS expander. (I'm not good at engineering, so the difference may be obvious to some). If I were starting off with neck expanders, I would jump right into the RCBS die, but I have a bunch of the NOE plugs and want to understand more before deciding to change over.

Here is the NOE expander that goes into the lee die:
2020-10-01_10-58-02.jpg

For those not aware, the NOE plug has two diameters. The first, smaller diameter is for expanding the full case neck and the second for expanding the case mouth. Now, I'm not trying to defend the NOE plug, just trying to figure out what would make it ineffective. Both the 226/222 and the 228/226 plug is long enough that it will expand the full length of the case neck.

rcbs_neck-expander-die-body-plug_600.jpg

From what I can tell, the RCBS is similar except the portion that expands the case mouth is variable. This portion of the RCBS expander seems to work similar to the Lee Universal Expander.

Again, for those who think the RCBS is superior, I have no qualms with that, but trying to figure out if I need to re-invest in different tools or if the accuracy gain in that re-investment is going to be minimal.

I'm sure I have not touched on a bunch of other points that have been covered here. As always I'm reading and re-reading these posts as I come up with testing plans. I really do appreciate everyone's feedback.
 

Dimner

Named Man
Use a seating tool to apply and partially crimp gas checks before sizing the bullets.

Oh, and also, can you please describe this a little more? I have the NOE gas check seating tool. Is that something I can use to partially crimp the GC's before sizing?

I should probably mention that I'm using the NOE push through sizer nose first when I size and apply gas checks.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Whoa. You are having a really hard time seeing the big picture here.

The very FIRST thing I'd do is fix your neck tension and overworking problem. Do you understand that oversizing and re-expanding case necks causes them to be off-center and that ruins accuracy? Hone the die or get a bushing die. .002 shoulder bump to give .002" headspace is fine.

Expanders. The stepped ones don't flare properly. They have an abrupt step between diameters and people tend to sink the large diameter into the neck enough that a bullet will slip in and stay. Well, you ruined the tension for the depth that the second step entered. Even if you just bump the mouth with the second step to open it, the abrupt transition doesn't give you a good flare. You need the neck uniformly expanded to X dimension and the mouth just barely belled enough to not scrape the bullet when seating. Having a gentle mouth flare and absolute control over how much flare the spud produces is why the RCBS expander is superior in every way, particularly regarding short necked cartridges. You can modify the NOE expander to produce the same results as RCBS if you're handy with a file and drill motior or have a lathe.

On the subject of alignment and concentricity, if you're not using a Forster BR seating die you're pissing in the wind. Just get one. It will work up to .226" cast bullets without modification. You will have to break the edge of the seating punch or it will ring the nose of the MP NATO bullet.

Square, firm seating and partially crimping gas checks is accomplished with a Lyman 45, 450, or 4500 bullet sizer/lubricator and a Lyman .225" sizing die, together with the gas check seating stop that comes with the machines new but usually is lost and not provided with used machines. If you aren't familiar with this stuff, find a Lyman #49 reloading handbook or cast bullet handbook #3 used. Skip #50 AND #4, respectively (latest publications). Seating checks without partially crimping and then shoving the bullet through a push-through often backs the check off the bullet base. It will reseat when fired but will mangle the shank and not shoot well.

Think toward these goals, and how what has been recommended will accomplish them:

  • Ensure the case neck is centered with the case body and chamber so that it presents the bullet to the EXACT CENTER of the throat when chambered. If the neck isn't concentric to the body figure out why and fix it. I already explained two ways to cure the issue.
  • Ensure that the bullet is straight in line with the case body and bore of rifle. if you have runout, FIND WHAT'S CAUSING IT AND FIX IT. If you don't have a concentricity gauge to pinpoint where and how much your case and bullet runout is, roll your cartridges in a flat surface and observe neck and bullet wobble and up/down movement. I suggest the cartridge concentricity gauge (any brand) because you can use it to check the effects of each reloading die in your process and troubleshoot which thing is causing runout.
  • Ensure that your bullet bases are flat and square, and no bumps or craters exist from the sprue cuts. Gas checks will not cover up these sins.
  • Prepare your necks so the bullet has .0015" to .002" neck tension. No more, no less.
It doesn't matter so much HOW you achieve concentric, straight ammunition with the bullet sized correctly for the rifle's throat and with the correct and consistent amount of neck tension, it matters only that you achieve these ends. I have made equipment suggestions, some are the only ones of their kind I know of and some are examples of the brand I use when multiple options exist. Just focus on fixing these problems first and you'll start to see things come together.
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
The RCBS expands on the down stroke AND up stroke - really over working the brass. Expand the neck, contract it (size) the re-expand. They are OK for jacketed blasting and hunting ammo. They are not good for cast due to typical jacket/bore dimensions. NOE or Lyman M expanders work for me. I DON'T load or shoot 223. From my 308 & BO experience, I'd start with a harder alloy (HT or whatever) to eliminate that part of the equation. I've shot 36 BHN and much lower in BO and see NO difference. You can work on tension, crimp and charge, then reduce BHN to see where accuracy goes south. To squeeze best accuracy might even need to neck turn to get neck wall thickness equal. Just depends on end results desired. My AR10 will do MOA @200 with cast pushed hard depending on the nut behind the trigger with no real fancy equipment but it is NOT a 223!! IMHO cast 223 just doubles or triples the challenge.
 

Bliksem

Active Member
I don't think a higher Bhn reading is going give you better accuracy until you straighten out a lot of other variables Ian mentioned, if ever.

Exactly right! I was once in the same place, wanting to achieve the hard things. It took me more years to achieve as I was so much in a hurry and did not learn the nuances of the craft. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

My journey down the rabbit hole of 556 cast in the MSR taught me much more than I realized at the time and made me a better cast reloader and shooter.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Dimmer, it is my understanding that once you quench a sized lead alloy bullet that sizing again can soften the alloys temper in many cases. I won't say all because it is also my understanding that alloys vary on the degree this happens. Every trip through the sizer is a chance to get things more screwed up, and by that I mean that sizing will never "fix" anything wrong with the casting other than it's diameter. And if it's even a tiny bit off center, each pass makes it worse. As far as the whole Bhn thing, a pet peeve of mine, consider something I've been saying for a good 15 years now based on actual experiments I did- I can take the same alloy and make it give 3 different Bhn readings and I can take 3 different alloys and make them read the same. Bhn only tells you a fraction of the story on the alloy, and it's not the largest part of it.