Randall 1911 .45 ACP Occasional Chambering Problem

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
In the "What Did You Shoot Today" thread, I mentioned that my Randall 1911 (manufactured in '83 and that I've owned since February '95), will experience an occasional chambering problem, with cast truncated cone and semi-wadcutter bullets, but not with a round nose cast bullet. Unfortunately, I don't take a camera to the range to show the malfunction. The best I can describe it is, the round will partially chamber and is pretty much in line with the barrel. In other words, the round is not at a steep angle with the bullet nose jammed against the bottom of the frame (three point jam?). The problem happens with both original Randall magazines (with Wolff replacement springs) and Check-Mate hybrids, so magazines can be eliminated. As part of a recent modification, the full length guide rod was replaced with a conventional guide rod and plug, and the original extractor was replaced with one by EGW. (Special shout out to Thunder Mountain Custom for their excellent parts selection, more than fair prices, and super-duper customer service!).

Last evening, Ian wrote a reply describing the process to check that the extractor is picking up the round as it should, and what needs to be done to it to assure that it does so more efficiently. This morning I replied that I'd follow his instructions, but it wasn't till later that I remembered I'd done it some years ago. Nonetheless, I went through the process again, but in doing so remembered what happened the last time -- the rounds pop free from the magazine and latch behind the extractor quicker that my eyes and brain can process their movement.

Next, I removed the new EGW extractor and compared its hook end to that of the original Randall extractor. (Poor pictures below). I remembered from when I installed it that the EGW hook's angles were all 90-degrees -- not even faceted as Ian posted. However, when looking at the Randall extractor it was readily apparent that its angles had been relieved, either by Randall or the previous owner though I suspect Randall. Rather than fiddle with the EGW extractor to make it right, I retensioned the Randall and reinstalled it. With both extractors a total of two dozen rounds chambered flawlessly.

The gun is strictly a range gun, so reckon I'll live with the occasional hiccup.

EGW on the left, Randall on the right.

974F08D0-BE50-4ADD-A082-09620DB2F9C8_4_5005_c.jpeg8EF6F940-7DB2-40B0-90FC-5C08FCD3C7A1_4_5005_c.jpeg
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
those don't even look like they are for the same gun.
Yep, modern-day 1911 parts manufacturers have taken great liberties in their attempts to outdo Mr. Browning. Undoubtedly, you could buy a modern 1911 and none of the parts would look the same as originals.

As far as I can tell, the original Randall extractor -- the one on the right -- was made to the original specs.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
The failure to feed- is it almost always the second to last round from the hybrid mags? Mine did and I larrlgy quit using the hybrid lips and went with GI. No more problems.

I also found this extractor and it does look like your Randall on the nose. https://cylinder-slide.com/index.ph...f=CS0002&sid=01ohgcz0lf18aeuds88p6cz0mk308638
Thanks, Brad.

Yep, the failure seems to always happen with the next to last round. At the range I load only five rounds, so it happens with the third one. I've been contemplating buying more Check-Mate magazines, and with the G. I. lips instead of the hybrids. Maybe it's time . . .

And, yes, that Cylinder and Slide extractor looks exactly like the Randall's.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Thanks, Brad.

Yep, the failure seems to always happen with the next to last round. At the range I load only five rounds, so it happens with the third one. I've been contemplating buying more Check-Mate magazines, and with the G. I. lips instead of the hybrids. Maybe it's time . . .

And, yes, that Cylinder and Slide extractor looks exactly like the Randall's.
Once I went to the GI feed lips my failures to feed stopped.
Mine were almost always the second to last round. That was with Checkmate hybrid lips magazines.

I want to get another 4-6 GI feed lip magazines. Once Checkmate has them in stock I will be buying.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Neither one of those extractors are shaped right, although the Randall one has ONE surface radiused properly. Where the hiccup occurs is that sharp corner on the bottom of the hook itself (bottom as installed in the pistol). When the case rim is feeding at an angle to the breech face, the front of the rim is farther away from the breech face and the bottom rear of the hook needs to be relieved to accommodate this. It doesn't take much.

Dimensio "F" is what I'm talking about in particular.

1676229116549.png
 

Ian

Notorious member
Once I went to the GI feed lips my failures to feed stopped.
Mine were almost always the second to last round. That was with Checkmate hybrid lips magazines.

I want to get another 4-6 GI feed lip magazines. Once Checkmate has them in stock I will be buying.

I've had better luck with SWC magazines when using the Lee 452-230 TC. Anything else, the original design work better as long as the barrel ramp is in the right place.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Thanks, Ian, for the drawing.

Double checked the Randall extractor. Though the "D" area has the radius, as posted above, the "F" and "G" areas do not.
Now that the original extractor is back in the gun, I'll fiddle relieving the EGW.
 
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462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I created little radii on the EGW extractor, but whether they are correct or not remains to be seen. I removed the Randall original and replaced it with the EGW, and will see how it acts during its next outing.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
If it helps, I was delighted to see that Wilson BPs now have the "F" cut and the "D" cut. They are cut as a bevel, so I'll be polishing the edges down a bit. I also have Kuhnhausen, and the illustration creosote posted frustrated me considerably over the years. I hate it when somebody says something like "just remove a little bit from this area".
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Before the internet existed in its current form, knowledge was passed by books and people. Often, you really had to know the right person to get the needed and correct information. And there was a mountain of misinformation also being distributed.

Years ago, I had a 1911 that didn’t like some brands of casings. It would run fine with one type and hiccup with another. I mentioned it to an older guy, that was an actual gunsmith, and he put me on the right path to correcting the issue. The issue was the extractor and as this thread points out, the solution is simple once you receive a little education. One of the strengths of this forum is the high quality of information available.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I'm no expert and am not trying to second guess those with more experience. But I did build a 1911 from a Springfield (the first iteration of the company that exists today) that will feed empty cases. My Wilson Combat will feed empty cases as well. Not sure hybrid lip magazines existed when I was shooting these guns regularly. I have to question why the original lips had to be changed when they worked just fine. Regardless, my guns feed reliably from every magazine I have except a cheapy extended mag I bought at a gun show one day and never bothered to try and make it work.

The point made by several that it tends to be the second from the last round indicates to me that spring pressure in the mag is involved. So, that tells me some area of friction is not being overcome by the mag spring. The only thing rubbing against the cartridge in the upward direction is the extractor, case nose and the base of the case against the face of the slide.

The nose of the bullet can play a major role in how the round feeds. I say CAN, because it can compensate for other shortcomings in the way the pistol is set up to feed. The TC bullet however, does not have that nice ogive to provide a smooth and gradual feed into the chamber. If you think about the profile of the TC bullet, where the RN has surface, the TC has space. So when the round exits the mag, if it wants to flip the back of the case upward (you have some inetia involved here, too), the RN supports the nose to continue to guide it. But with a TC, if it flips up, it has nothing to stop it or guide it and the case mouth can catch. In that case, there was insufficient friction. Like maybe the extractor is not taking a strong enough grip.

If this were my problem this is how I would proceed. I'd make some dummy rounds and hand feed them thru the gun. I'd feed them slowly to watch what the bullet does and also feed them quickly to emulate self-loading to see if I can duplicate the jam. At the range when it jams, I'd want to see exactly WHERE it is jammed. I assume it is the edge of the case mouth. But is it the top, bottom or possibly one of the sides? That will help you diagnose the root cause.

Another thing you could also try is to remove the extractor and hand cycle the pistol with dummy rounds. Yeah, you might have to push out the rounds with a rod (they probably will just fall out when you open the gun) but if you can get it to jam with the extractor in place and then cannot without the extractor, that's another clue.

Again, no expert. Just going thru the thought process out loud that I'd go thru if I had to deal with this.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
A full magazine of dummy rounds can tell you a lot. Cycling dummy roads through the gun slowly, as Snakeoil points out, can be an excellent tool to trouble shoot feeding issues.