Settling Powder Causing Vertical Stringing?

Matt

Active Member
I stumbled into something odd this morning while testing some loads in a 1903 Springfield.
The loads consisted of many times fired Remington brass, Federal large pistol primers, 9.0 grains of old Red Dot. The bullet is the NOE copy of the Saeco #315 plain base. The bullets are basically 20:1 alloy, sized to .311 with Ben’s Red in the two bottom grease grooves. The bullets are seated just to cover the lube.
I’m trying to develop a plain base match load for this rifle. As part of my “match” firing routine I lightly tap the case base on the bench 2-3 times prior to placing the cartridge in the magazine and then chambering it.
I was doing that this morning and was seeing vertical stringing with every group. I immediately thought it was a primer issue. After the fourth group averaging over 2.25inches I decided I needed to try something else, in this case a different primer. My fifth group was fired to get the brass empty and recover the bullets from the bullet trap. To my surprise the group was round and under 2 inches! I decided to shoot a “match” group settling the powder. Got a vertical and wind swept group exceeding 3.5 inches! The light went on, dimly. I started wondering if settling the powder was causing the stringing by packing powder in the flash hole and in the primer itself. I know that most pistol powders will leak out of flash holes when a primer doesn’t get seated during progressive reloading. I fired my last group with no settling and was rewarded with a group just over an inch.
I shoot a lot of cast loads in rifles using Bullseye and Red Dot with plain based bullets or not using gas checks. They are not “match” type loads, but a lot of groups are shot casually and I don’t experience stringing.
Going over notes I see that some serious accuracy attempts with the Ideal 308241 and Bullseye in M54 and M70 Winchesters showing vertical stringing, I’m sure the ritual tapping to settle powder was involved. I’m starting to feel that I’m inducing the stringing by changing primer performance by packing fine grained pistol powders in the flash home and primer cup.
I’ll test my theory, but I’m wondering if anyone else has seen anything like this. Photo shows results of alternate settling and not settling.6ECE007E-7E48-4EE5-A516-12A37B1516D9.jpeg
 

Dimner

Named Man
It may be something with the powder settling, but with red dot, I highly doubt it's getting through or in the flash hole. Red dot is one of the biggest grained/particle powders. Big ol flakes.

However that's not to say something else is afoot and causing the stringing on tapped/settled cases.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Position sensitivity!

Some powders are worse than others. I never felt 2400 was bad but he did a few tests and discovered velocity variation based on position in 45-70 at ignition. Powder forward versus back gave significant enough variations in velocity to start showing up at 100-150 yards.
I shot lever action silhouette for a few years and determined after I was done that my 2400 load in 30-30 was causing me elevation problems at 150 and 200.

So yes, what you are seeing is very real.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
move it to the front and see what happens.

yep 2400 is placement sensitive, I probably look kinda weird pointing the rifle straight up in the air before each shot on ground squirrels, but that's how it is in that 0-6.
other powders in some [usually smaller] amounts are just as bad, unique in low levels will do it too.
 

Dimner

Named Man
I've had really good luck with trail boss and the 30-06 with light bullets and low speeds. No position sensitivity that I can notice. Moa at 50 yards.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Empty space in a cartridge case can cause no end of problems. The steps we take to address those empty spaces can cause problems of their own, as well.

In my own experience, I was an acolyte of dacron fillers for a few years--until that stuff customized the chamber of a nice flatband Winchester 1894 for me. JES fixed that nicely, reboring the spoiled chamber and its bore from 25/35 WCF to 38/55, which is a far more useful and tractable caliber--esp. with castings. I summarize that experience by saying "I might have fallen into the outhouse cesspit, but I climbed out smelling like Old Spice".

Someone mentioned Trail Boss. I like the stuff. I still have 3+ flasks of it on the shelf. It appears to be Very Fluffy Red Dot. I haven't done much with it in rifles other than 32/20 and 44/40 leverguns, but it is REALLY GOOD in 90%-100% density loads in magnum and 45 Colt revolvers with cast standard-weight SWCs seated. 900 FPS, and nicely accurate.

You know me--I have trouble finding heresies I don't like. Some of us here are old enough to remember the heyday of bulk milsurp powders sold at attractive pricing in 8# caddies. I still have a couple of the WC-860 containers in the magazine, and that is some useful cast bullet fuel. Loaded at 100% density--and with some applications given a "kicker" of small amounts of IMR-4198--this stuff has given some surprisingly accurate results in calibers it has no place being used.

Don't try this at home--remember, I am a heretic. :)
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
move it to the front and see what happens.

yep 2400 is placement sensitive, I probably look kinda weird pointing the rifle straight up in the air before each shot on ground squirrels, but that's how it is in that 0-6.
other powders in some [usually smaller] amounts are just as bad, unique in low levels will do it too.
I have done it three ways; front, back and SAAMI roll. When shooting matches I tap the case three times (no magic, just habit) lay it gently onto the benchrest follower and gently slide the bolt close. A benchrest follower is required as 1903's feed vigorously. I also use either Fed LR Match or WW LR. The sloped position of 2400 is much more regular positions and gives better numbers with "hot" primers.
 

Matt

Active Member
In a response to my powder settling question a member opined that Red Dot was too bulky to get through a flash hole. It seemed like a reasonable response. It is bulkier that Bullseye or W231/HP 38. But it’s seemed easy to see if that hypothesis was correct.

I checked to see if Red Dot will fall through the flash hole with 2-3 light taps as has been my match shooting ritual for years. I neck sized/decamped a once fired Winchester .30/06 case. Threw a charge of 9.0 grains of Red Dot in the unprimed case and set it base down in a piece of paper. Lifted it and no powder leaked. I tapped lightly twice and you see the results. I’m guessing tapping will pack the flash hole and primer when using Red Dot. This could 03559F28-A01E-4167-9AF5-7390C288298D.jpegchange the performance of the primer.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Wonder if moving powder toward the nose would get better performance? That is where the primer flame goes.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
CBA shooters in the high mechanical classes always said that tapping the bullet end and then laying it on the follower made better numbers over the chronograph. FWIW