F
freebullet
Guest
But you notice little chunks of lube on your paper target. Did they come off at impact? Was it something else? What does it mean to YOU? Thoughts, experiences, & speculation welcomed.
9
9.3X62AL
Guest
My belief is that the lube you see on target paper is that which got slung off as the bullet approached the target. It might be instructive to roll out newsprint from the firing point to the target--say, at 25 yards--to see where and how much lube was getting spun off. Be mindful that the slinging goes in 360* dispersion as the bullet traverses downrange, and that the bullet is rotating at some pretty high RPMs. It is kind of a wonder that any lube remains in place very far in front of the muzzle. Still, I have seen many instances where Lyman #429421 has slung significant amounts of Javelina onto B-27 target paper at 25 yards.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
I've had lube chunks on the paper when shooting in the middle of winter using Lyman Orange Magic. As I remember, groups weren't real terrible but, not the best. I figured that it was happening to them all, kind of uniformly. I'd rather have it fly off the bullet as soon as the bullet left the bore.
Ian
Notorious member
Lube boogers on my 100-yard targets, accompanied by flyers, is what got me into the years-long quest for a better understanding of what makes bullet lube tick, along with a better mousetrap. I found that I always got better groups when the targets were clean, rifle or handgun, 25 to 100 yards. If you wanna know what's up, shoot through some cardboard at two or three feet, then again at about 5-7'. If any is coming off, it ought to be long gone by 15 yards.
Fiver put it best: "It either needs to all stay or go".
Fiver put it best: "It either needs to all stay or go".
Ian
Notorious member
I forgot to answer the question. If you gots a fat groove, you better gets ya some non-slippery, soft lube that goes liquid fast. Beeswax, Vaseline, and plain paraffin (NOT taper candle paraffin with a ton of Vybar 103 in it) is tough to beat unless the climate is extremely hot. If it is, make it with about 5-8% Ivory soap, and add a little bit of mineral oil to soften it back up nicely.
Or powder coat the bullets.
Or powder coat the bullets.
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
Lol, Ben's Red will "sling off" quick with deep groove, shallow groove, multiple groove, whatever in my experience. I don't like lube remaining in the grooves at all at the target, especially at the longer distances.
fiver
Well-Known Member
remember those cardboard tests you shot with the paratack lube and I could count the lands and grooves in your barrel?
that made me a pretty firm believer in thixotropic lubes that started out on the hard side but became soft and supple under pressure and heat.
the wax has been the big hold up on a perfect lube but a mix of waxes and a small amount of paraffin has proven out to work well.
the addition of the paraffin has lead to the lube flowing pretty consistently [and it all flows at one time] which makes all the oil available to the barrel.
the trick is in the super low oil amount in the lube.
remember a lube also has to have a friction characteristic [like it rubs and rolls over on itself while thinning out to a fine edge] and a high oil content won't allow that.
that made me a pretty firm believer in thixotropic lubes that started out on the hard side but became soft and supple under pressure and heat.
the wax has been the big hold up on a perfect lube but a mix of waxes and a small amount of paraffin has proven out to work well.
the addition of the paraffin has lead to the lube flowing pretty consistently [and it all flows at one time] which makes all the oil available to the barrel.
the trick is in the super low oil amount in the lube.
remember a lube also has to have a friction characteristic [like it rubs and rolls over on itself while thinning out to a fine edge] and a high oil content won't allow that.
F
freebullet
Guest
Sounds like everyone has about the same feeling/experience about it as I'd gathered.
The cartridges that did it missed the velocity window I was going for. While not over pressure the accuracy had degraded and the little lube buggers seemed to add insult.
The cartridges that did it missed the velocity window I was going for. While not over pressure the accuracy had degraded and the little lube buggers seemed to add insult.
Ian
Notorious member
Just remember there's a big difference between soft lube, low-viscosity lube, and slippery lube. Soft lubes that jettison well at low pressure are generally too slippery due to high oil content and relatively low soap content, or have a lot of Lithium soap which itself is slippery when thin and hot. Low-viscosity lubes generally don't handle boundary conditions or high velocity very well, but do jettison well due to almost instant melt characteristics. Slippery lubes can be hard or soft, and can work in very specific and highly tuned setups, but are usually poor for general use. Making a lube that is soft, not too adhesive or cohesive, is thixotropic, yet still has very predictable and repeatable boundary lube characteristics through a broad temperature range is really pretty tough to accomplish.
When lube is crushed out thin and all the wax melted, what's left on the boundary is what makes the difference in how it shoots. Things like castor oil, lithium soap, sodium soap, Lanolin, Carnauba, graphite, zinc compounds, Moly powder, and Paratac all start to go to work as the base oils and waxes thin out past their ability to give a good dynamic film. If you push sodium soap lube past the boundary film capability of the oils, it dumps out and leaves fouling. Lithium soap lube doesn't have that problem unless waxes are below 10% by weight. But Lithium soap gets slippery when very hot, and hydroplaning or the famous 'lube smear' can start to occur because the molecule is about 100 times smaller than sodium soap. Sodium is a better "stop leak" but the matrix gets wrung out of oil easily like a sponge, so you have to support it with castor oil (only thing I know of that has the correct molecular polarity for the job).
The reason I mention all this is to explain the qualities a lube must have to be able to jettison easily from deep grooves and not be either too slick or too "purgy" when used in excess quantities. Many of the lithi-bee derivatives will goober up a revolver very quickly using big square-grooved bullets, and may or may not shoot well depending on the quality of the lube, the temperature, and what the revolver likes, so it's very easy to trade late-jettison flyers for purge flyers and actually have worse groups with a softer lube.
When lube is crushed out thin and all the wax melted, what's left on the boundary is what makes the difference in how it shoots. Things like castor oil, lithium soap, sodium soap, Lanolin, Carnauba, graphite, zinc compounds, Moly powder, and Paratac all start to go to work as the base oils and waxes thin out past their ability to give a good dynamic film. If you push sodium soap lube past the boundary film capability of the oils, it dumps out and leaves fouling. Lithium soap lube doesn't have that problem unless waxes are below 10% by weight. But Lithium soap gets slippery when very hot, and hydroplaning or the famous 'lube smear' can start to occur because the molecule is about 100 times smaller than sodium soap. Sodium is a better "stop leak" but the matrix gets wrung out of oil easily like a sponge, so you have to support it with castor oil (only thing I know of that has the correct molecular polarity for the job).
The reason I mention all this is to explain the qualities a lube must have to be able to jettison easily from deep grooves and not be either too slick or too "purgy" when used in excess quantities. Many of the lithi-bee derivatives will goober up a revolver very quickly using big square-grooved bullets, and may or may not shoot well depending on the quality of the lube, the temperature, and what the revolver likes, so it's very easy to trade late-jettison flyers for purge flyers and actually have worse groups with a softer lube.
KHornet
Well-Known Member
Just my 2 cents at this point! I use Bens Red, with a single application of BLL as an overcoat for every thing I cast,
rifle wise,at the present time. Am using for the most part 2 coats of BLL for handgun projectiles (but haven't tried
just BLL on Kieth style bullets YET. Am not sure about slinging lube, but I doubt Bll only would not be slinging
of it.
rifle wise,at the present time. Am using for the most part 2 coats of BLL for handgun projectiles (but haven't tried
just BLL on Kieth style bullets YET. Am not sure about slinging lube, but I doubt Bll only would not be slinging
of it.
fiver
Well-Known Member
it has some sling off.
but for the most part it stays in place to the target.
which is fine you want it all on or all gone but nothing in between.
if I could figure out how to do a perfect .002 coat of powder, or linked polymer, or anything softer than copper but didn't melt like plastic.
I'd be all over it and sell my lube stuff.
until then I see no advantage over a well cut round mold, and many disadvantages.
I view lubes the same way, they are either an advantage and work within my parameter's or they don't.
if not, I move along.
but for the most part it stays in place to the target.
which is fine you want it all on or all gone but nothing in between.
if I could figure out how to do a perfect .002 coat of powder, or linked polymer, or anything softer than copper but didn't melt like plastic.
I'd be all over it and sell my lube stuff.
until then I see no advantage over a well cut round mold, and many disadvantages.
I view lubes the same way, they are either an advantage and work within my parameter's or they don't.
if not, I move along.
F
freebullet
Guest
Thanks for the replies.
I hadn't ever noticed lube chunks on my targets before that experience. The loads that did it were moving just a bit faster than I had intended. Didn't seem like accuracy was great either. How could it be if the lube is coming off willy nilly. Will use up that lube on low velocity loads.
Seems we have a consensus of folks wanting it all gone or all to stay put. Has anyone done testing enough to determine if either way(all off or stays put) works better?
I hadn't ever noticed lube chunks on my targets before that experience. The loads that did it were moving just a bit faster than I had intended. Didn't seem like accuracy was great either. How could it be if the lube is coming off willy nilly. Will use up that lube on low velocity loads.
Seems we have a consensus of folks wanting it all gone or all to stay put. Has anyone done testing enough to determine if either way(all off or stays put) works better?
fiver
Well-Known Member
I have had good luck both way's.
a lube groove full does provide the advantage of a smooth surface for air to flow over better.
but so does a boolit with drive bands that aren't cut square on the nose.
it's kind of minutia but at some point air flow does affect the boolits flight.
a lube groove full does provide the advantage of a smooth surface for air to flow over better.
but so does a boolit with drive bands that aren't cut square on the nose.
it's kind of minutia but at some point air flow does affect the boolits flight.