Think I now have a Jap Arisaka!

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
HAH! Like my wife. She started shooting with the college rifle team....now all guns have to have
great sights and great triggers. Hard to argue with it, but it does cause me extra work
getting her guns "right".

Did not know about the brass being undersized.

Bill
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Well I went to the range with two rifles this past Sunday:
I shot this target the bench with the Arisaka Model 38 at 50 yards open V battle sights. Used my Lee 135 grain .270 bullets sized .277" powder coated with Smokes Clear PC. 5.0 Grains Red Dot and CCI 200 primers COL was 2.710"
10 shots ( five of them going in to 7/16" center to center .....I'm tickled pink!!!
Jim
8767
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Very nice. Great start, but leaving room for improvement, too.

I kinda wonder if factory jbullets would shoot a lot tighter. The are battle rifles not target rifles,
and the original sights don't help a whole lot. You were talking about putting good target peep
and front sights on, has that happened?

Bill
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
I will be doing the sight change soon: Lyman receiver and Lyman 17 Globe front with aperture
But even so I did that with the wide V battle sights, With my eye problems ....this is one for the books!
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
chuckle.
think about everything you have had to do to get this poor little rifle shooting.
I mean who would have almost immediately thought about using 277 diameter powder coated bullets in a 6.5 caliber gun just a few years ago.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I would have gone straight to paper patch a few years ago. Now, probably would have done what Jim did, it's hard to quit a winner.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Jim,
Your stickttoitness has surely paid off.

I don't have any plans to try powder coating, but it does seem to have some advantages.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I failed to note the diameter the first read. Wow, that is petty large. The Carcano has
a .268 groove diam, and shoots quite poorly with Norma factory ammo which is the
6.5Swede-appropriate .264 diam.
I went back and quickly reviewed this thread, saw no actual groove diameter reported, just that
the throat is .277 and you are fitting to the throat. Do you know the groove diam? Just curious
if the Swede .264 or the Italian .268 matches what the Japanese called "6.5 mm" or whether they
had another version, too.

Bill
 
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Ian

Notorious member
If we ever have a pop quiz here on what our rifle groove diameters are I'd fail pretty miserably.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
The only reason I know about the Carcano and Swede is having a nice Carcano rifle which will shoot
2" groups with factory sights and horribly hangfiring Italian surplus ammo, and 20" at the same range
same day with "nice, wonderful, high quality" Norma ammo. This is, I am almost sure, the origination
of the "Carcano's aren't accurate" myth. They are just fine, with .268 Jbullets, but sure suck with .264 jbullets.
When my brother and I shot them a lot in the 60s, we only could afford Italian surplus ammo and it shot
just fine. We knew that the folks claiming "Carcanos are not accurate" were full of beans. A piece of the
whole "must have been another shooter" myth about Dallas 1963 events, because they "know" that the
shot was impossible with that "inaccurate" rifle - probably based on testing with Norma ammo.

How do you think your .308 Win would do with .304 bullets?

Of course, for rifles shooting cast, I would have thought that you guys would know your groove diams.

Must not load for any M-N 91/30s which run from .312 to .316.

Bill
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
no M/N's here, I avoided that bandwagon.
I do have a couple 303 brit's, a few 7.7 japs, and at least 3 7.65 Argie's though.

my 308 actually does pretty good with 304, I had a push through sizer made that diameter just for it.
2 wraps of 25% cotton vellum paper and 42grs of 4895 works pretty darn well with a soft lead core.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Of course, for rifles shooting cast, I would have thought that you guys would know your groove diams.

Nope. As far as I'm concerned groove diameter is a useless statistic for cast because I fit bullets to the throat, not the barrel.

That means the only measurements I'm interested in are headspace, chamber diameter at the breech end, neck diameter and taper, throat freebore/size/length/angle/shape, what the transition looks like between chamber and throat, and bore diameter ahead of the throat.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Bill,
OK I did check the barrel at about 2" down from the muzzle and it is .287"-.288" The throat and the beech end of the barrel shows some wear but amazingly the upper 2/3rds of the barrel is pretty tight to Mil spec! I too do not worry about groove diameter I with Ian on this; "I'm interested in are headspace, chamber diameter at the breech end, neck diameter and taper, throat freebore/size/length/angle/shape, what the transition looks like between chamber and throat, and bore diameter ahead of the throat."
Most times a pound cast is the only thing I need to set up a rifle for shooting cast!
With this rifle however I needed a lot of info on the chamber since I have to make the cases!
The Japanese Service specs are pretty different than SAAMI Specs ( Will post a comparison below)
I would love to have the Japanese Service Chamber specs but I can not locate them.
I have found that I have best results with .243 Win brass Run through a Special Swage die ( Thanks to Brad) that reduces the head size to close to proper diameter for the 6.5 x 50 I still find on some brass I have to spin it up in my drill press and reduce the size a tad more because of "spring back" I thought of actually annealing the "whole case" first because pressure is not an issue with the loads I shoot. But IO figured most folks think I'm crazy enough! (Actually if the heads were annealed and fired with my light loads they world work harden after about 2 firings!) And save a lot of wear and tear on my arm, press & swage die!) I have a set of old Pacific 6.5 x 50 dies The FL sizer bring the cases to SAAMI Spec which is "Small"
Once the cases are blown out I do not resize them. I have turned the case necks just enough to fit the chamber with the .277" cast bullets
So that the loaded cartridge has very little tolerance in the neck upon chambering!
The only problem I see is that that Little Lee 135 gr bullet needs to make the jump into the chamber ( I have yet to find any cast bullet that can be loaded in the case and still touch the lands) All in all the Lee bullet seems to work well. so no since spending more money if I don't have to!
Jim

8773
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
I just want to mention something here: I by no means am a cast bullet or cast bullet shooting expert! I only do what I think I need to do to get a cast bullet to shoot well in a rifle. Im sure that much of what I do is unorthodox. I have found the world of Loading & shooting cast bullets is way different then what I learned back in the late 70's and early 80's loading Jacketed bullets for max speed! I never consider what I learned then to even be a part of loading for cast bullets. Just forget all that and start from scratch!
I have loaded accurate cast bullet rifle loads with just the help of a fired case and a cast bullet started with the help of a cold punch or needle nose pliers to expand the neck to set in a bullet! With my loads, I have a few calibers that I have never resized a case or even the neck. They shoot very well. My cast bullet reloading has absolutely nothing in common with loading for jacketed bullets, including "4 number" powders.
I shoot to kill paper only so That is where my interest is.
If I can give some one information that will help them I will try to do what I can.
Because GOD Knows I have reaped a lot of information over the years from many folks that are here and I am thankful.
Jim
 
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Ian

Notorious member
Most times a pound cast is the only thing I need to set up a rifle for shooting cast!

Bingo.

If you find a bona-fide cast bullet expert, let me know because I want to spend about a year being their shadow. Most of us just find what works and go with it.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Geeze Ian...I though you were that person! ;)
As we say in Professional Digital Photography: Don't believe anybody that tells you they are a "photoshop expert!"
( I started in Photoshop 2.0 in 1987.............. "No matter how long you work with something you will always find someone doing the same thing but differently & getting the same results!")
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Jim.
you'd be surprised how loading jacketed bullets like you would a cast bullet will pay off on the paper end.
I started looking at rifles as rifles and matching jacketed bullet shapes to throat shapes and found accuracy was laughably easy pretty much no matter what I put behind them.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Fiver, that 7.65 Argie is a vastly underrated cartridge. Like the 8x57, it'll do just about anything the '06 will.

Jim, flaring a case mouth with needle nose pliers, add some powder and a bullet, seat and shoot. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt! Some of the most enjoyable shooting I ever did. Nothing wrong with it at all. Interesting specs on the Arisaka case!