Time has come for a more accurate powder throw. I think.
- Thread starter Mitty38
- Start date
I have a bunch of different ones, but here lately I just trickle on a beam scale with lee dippers, except for 2400, 4227 and wc820 it seems that all of them work with those, also charge and load one at a time. I don't see how a factory or arsenal could load with 4759 or 5744 the stuff goes through mine like driveway gravel, but it sure shoots good
Bill
Bill
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
To the best of my knowledge, SR4759 was only loaded in M79 20MM grenade launching rounds in the Viet Nam era. This is the "high/low" two chamber cartridge; small combustion chamber that makes about 20,000 psi then dumps into a big chamber at about 6,000 psi. Full one grain variation would not make a difference. MP5744 is an Israeli powder developed for exactly the same round.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Funny you should mention...ACCURATE 5744 IS ALL THAT GOES THRU COUSINS 30/30. SWEARS BY IT.
He has loaded with a home made scoop for 25 years no trickle or weighing, just scoop tap dump, or so he has said. While showing me how to use Lee Measures.
Course I do not have a 30-30 yet or that powder.So what do I know.
He has loaded with a home made scoop for 25 years no trickle or weighing, just scoop tap dump, or so he has said. While showing me how to use Lee Measures.
Course I do not have a 30-30 yet or that powder.So what do I know.
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CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
I have a Lyman old Grey and newer Orange. Two Reddings a x15 and something else looks about same to me. Maybe diff drums?? A few RCBS's two Dillons and a Older Hornady.
The RCBS is mounted by every press (3 of them) The X15 is beside my primary press. The dillons are on the 550's. The rest if them are in boxes on the shelf.
Not to be a Hater cause Im really not I just like to play to makers positives. IMHO LEE shouldnt make a Powder measure or Scale. THERE I said it! I have and use many LEE products. Just not all Of em. The scopes are great. I have red black and yellow ones!!! Also have a few home made scoopers from shell cases and solder!
RCBS has been super stabile and consistent. Lyman with the older horiz sliding meter was very problematic with flake. The newer drum/screw style is great pretty much across the board as long as your 5g or more. For the tiny splashes of powder I have a Lil Dandy and another simular but hand held with a thumb button and small Hopper.
Thats what works for me.
CW
The RCBS is mounted by every press (3 of them) The X15 is beside my primary press. The dillons are on the 550's. The rest if them are in boxes on the shelf.
Not to be a Hater cause Im really not I just like to play to makers positives. IMHO LEE shouldnt make a Powder measure or Scale. THERE I said it!
I have and use many LEE products. Just not all Of em. The scopes are great. I have red black and yellow ones!!! Also have a few home made scoopers from shell cases and solder! RCBS has been super stabile and consistent. Lyman with the older horiz sliding meter was very problematic with flake. The newer drum/screw style is great pretty much across the board as long as your 5g or more. For the tiny splashes of powder I have a Lil Dandy and another simular but hand held with a thumb button and small Hopper.
Thats what works for me.
CW
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Rick H
Well-Known Member
I use the scoops. The Lee Disc measures on a turret for most pistol rounds. I also use a Redding BR-30 and the RCBS little Dandy. To be honest I have an old Herter's powder measure with their micrometer powder setting (rather crude) that is every bit as accurate and easy to use once set as the Redding.
The Lee Scoops have to be the handiest darn things. I use them all the time.
The Lee Scoops have to be the handiest darn things. I use them all the time.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Guess it depends on what your goals are. Right tool for the job and all.
I love my lee disk for H335 in .223.Also for my H- Universal loads. Seams to meter those well within their window of accuracy.
Was when I started getting into the heavier loads that required the double disk, That issues came up.
If lee made the little balance scale about 25% bigger it would be a lot better. Besides that I use and trust it.
Use it often to check calibration of my Hornady electric scale, The Hornady starts to move calibration, sometimes as soon as, every 15 weighs or so.
.
Been trying new loads. Different goals.
So Enter The Spoons, and eventually a drum measure.
I love my lee disk for H335 in .223.Also for my H- Universal loads. Seams to meter those well within their window of accuracy.
Was when I started getting into the heavier loads that required the double disk, That issues came up.
If lee made the little balance scale about 25% bigger it would be a lot better. Besides that I use and trust it.
Use it often to check calibration of my Hornady electric scale, The Hornady starts to move calibration, sometimes as soon as, every 15 weighs or so.
.
Been trying new loads. Different goals.
So Enter The Spoons, and eventually a drum measure.
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Bliksem
Active Member
The gotcha is always that different powders meter differently in volumetric measures.
(Asbestos suit on, hope it's not needed on this forum.)
I have tinkered and experimented quite a bit with powder measures, including electronic & dippers and my conclusion is that in order for volumetric to work properly you need to use powder that is friendly to the specific device used. This is why certain preferences for certain measures exist. The different designs and types of measures typically cater to a narrow range of powder types and work well when those types are being measured. There is no "best" powder measure and they should not be considered in the same way that Crescent wrenches are considered one size fits all.
My preference is for volumetric so I avoid powders that won't meter well. (The only exception is SR4759 as it performs so well in some of my favorite loads.)
Consider the measuring cavities of the volumetric measures, some are large diameter and set shallow, while others are small diameter and set deep. Different cavity shapes fill differently depending upon the shape of the individual powder pieces. We are not measuring water here so the geometry of the cavity is significant.
My personal preference of most of the cartridges I reload is custom 3D printed measures used with the Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure. These volumetric measures along with the appropriate powder measures within acceptable tolerances that allow quite consistent groups on target. Are these bench rest accuracy capable? Probably not but accurate enough to take hunting and acceptable to me. I don't reload to please others, just myself.
(Asbestos suit on, hope it's not needed on this forum.)
I have tinkered and experimented quite a bit with powder measures, including electronic & dippers and my conclusion is that in order for volumetric to work properly you need to use powder that is friendly to the specific device used. This is why certain preferences for certain measures exist. The different designs and types of measures typically cater to a narrow range of powder types and work well when those types are being measured. There is no "best" powder measure and they should not be considered in the same way that Crescent wrenches are considered one size fits all.
My preference is for volumetric so I avoid powders that won't meter well. (The only exception is SR4759 as it performs so well in some of my favorite loads.)
Consider the measuring cavities of the volumetric measures, some are large diameter and set shallow, while others are small diameter and set deep. Different cavity shapes fill differently depending upon the shape of the individual powder pieces. We are not measuring water here so the geometry of the cavity is significant.
My personal preference of most of the cartridges I reload is custom 3D printed measures used with the Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure. These volumetric measures along with the appropriate powder measures within acceptable tolerances that allow quite consistent groups on target. Are these bench rest accuracy capable? Probably not but accurate enough to take hunting and acceptable to me. I don't reload to please others, just myself.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Ian
Notorious member
Outstanding perspective and composition, Blikseme!
I find that the RCBS Uniflow is as close to a Crescent wrench as there is in volumetric measures, but still it requires consistent technique and a baffle to be accurate. The Uniflow shears extruded powder kernels and the occasional jerking and popping can affect charge weights by settling the incoming flow more than normal, but really nothing is perfect, not even the Chargemaster.
The Lee Pro Autodisk is surprisingly consistent with a large variety of powders, but again not all. I use it for all my progressive and most turret reloading, including .308 and others with the double-disk arrangement. What I found essential with the double disk is to tape or glue the disks togefher so the cavities in the disks being used are concentric and don't move in relation to each other. Set up properly and baffled with a thin aluminum baffle, I'm seeing total variations of less than a tenth of a grain from 100-round runs using Reloder 7. The Autodisks dont like some of the big flake powders though, in fact I quit even trying to run Hodgdon Clays through mine because it had such a problem with bridging.
I find that the RCBS Uniflow is as close to a Crescent wrench as there is in volumetric measures, but still it requires consistent technique and a baffle to be accurate. The Uniflow shears extruded powder kernels and the occasional jerking and popping can affect charge weights by settling the incoming flow more than normal, but really nothing is perfect, not even the Chargemaster.
The Lee Pro Autodisk is surprisingly consistent with a large variety of powders, but again not all. I use it for all my progressive and most turret reloading, including .308 and others with the double-disk arrangement. What I found essential with the double disk is to tape or glue the disks togefher so the cavities in the disks being used are concentric and don't move in relation to each other. Set up properly and baffled with a thin aluminum baffle, I'm seeing total variations of less than a tenth of a grain from 100-round runs using Reloder 7. The Autodisks dont like some of the big flake powders though, in fact I quit even trying to run Hodgdon Clays through mine because it had such a problem with bridging.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Mitty,Going to look for a used trickle charger.
For now my trickle charger is a bent playing card and a pencil.
For trickling I have been using a little pewter box and a wire that I’ve fashioned into a little spoon.
I believe that in the late seventies and early eighties they used to call these little guys “coke spoons”!
Josh
RBHarter
West Central AR
I don't know if it's a fix or not but the Uniflows I run drop stick powder +0 -.1-2 with H322 to 4350 and 2.5-9.5 gr of Unique close enough that from #15 to 200 drops it isn't worth the time to check more than 1 in 20 by more than eyeball in the case . Both are baffled with a radial cone with a 3/8 center hole centered . They charge when the handle is raised and dump is the normal gravity position for the handle . It looks backwards in the set up but it only drops what the funnel will allow to pass to the chamber so even a few bumps won't settle the drop chamber heavy and any kernels cut will be on the closure of the charge chamber so you can't wiggle any more into it .
I hope that made sense .
I hope that made sense .
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Rick H
Well-Known Member
My "trickler" is one of the smallest Lee "spoons". Put a dab of powder in it, tilt it and tap tap tap a bit of powder at a time. I own one of those ready made commercial tricklers and find it awkward and slow to use. Holding the spoon with thumb and middle finger while tapping with the forefinger becomes second nature.
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="Ian, post: 148402, member:
The Lee Pro Autodisk is surprisingly consistent with a large variety of powders, but again not all. I use it for all my progressive and most turret reloading, including .308 and others with the double-disk arrangement. What I found essential with the double disk is to tape or glue the disks togefher so the cavities in the disks being used are concentric and don't move in relation to each other. Set up properly and baffled with a thin aluminum baffle, I'm seeing total variations of less than a tenth of a grain from 100-round runs using Reloder 7. The Autodisks dont like some of the big flake powders though, in fact I quit even trying to run Hodgdon Clays through mine because it had such a problem with bridging.
[/QUOTE]
Could you please show us a photo of these baffles?
Thanks,
Rocky
The Lee Pro Autodisk is surprisingly consistent with a large variety of powders, but again not all. I use it for all my progressive and most turret reloading, including .308 and others with the double-disk arrangement. What I found essential with the double disk is to tape or glue the disks togefher so the cavities in the disks being used are concentric and don't move in relation to each other. Set up properly and baffled with a thin aluminum baffle, I'm seeing total variations of less than a tenth of a grain from 100-round runs using Reloder 7. The Autodisks dont like some of the big flake powders though, in fact I quit even trying to run Hodgdon Clays through mine because it had such a problem with bridging.
[/QUOTE]
Could you please show us a photo of these baffles?
Thanks,
Rocky
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mattw
Active Member
There is no perfect measure. Really generalized statement, I realize.
My goto measure is an RCBS Uniflow with a small drum mounted to the right of my RC2. How a measure is mounted makes a difference. I have this one mounted in the older RCBS stand with the steel arm extended out from the bench. The stand is about 4 inches past the edge of the bench with a 1x4 oak mounting board. I can sit in my chair and fill bench blocks, rotate just a little and charge a complete block and repeat. For me, this measure is a good universal measure, but I do not like it for very small cases and a couple of different powders. It handles the basics, W231, Unique, bullseye, all the Dots, 2400, H110, 4227, 4895 really well and does so with good accuracy. I do not like it with very long stick powders, feels very crunchy and starts to vary some, so I then get close and trickle up to what I need. Also some of the fine powders feel bad, but measure well. This measure gets no love when dropping into the 2.2 grain and lower charges, it is not consistent for me.
I do have an old Lyman 55, very good for tiny charges and somewhat a pain to set up. The 3 adjustment cavity seems to work the best if the cavity is deep with the adjusters set to form a straight side wall. This will throw down to the 1.7 and 1.8 grains for my light 32ACP loads and is consistent. I have never used one with any of the third party chamber mods and would love to but can't afford them when they come up. I would kill to have a drop tube for it that was longer and threaded on the outside for a standard die nut and RCBS threaded drop tubes, then I could mount it properly in the RCBS stand and I think it would work better yet. The knocker is key with this measure, does slow the workflow down just a little. Accuracy increased after I made a baffle for it.
I also use a Lee PPM. What a piece of crap! I did lap in the drum to help with the powder dust fallout, it did help but did not fix it. The lever is way to short for general use, the drop tube stinks and no chance of mounting it in a decent stand. I love the idea of the removable hopper, they got that one right. Again, it gains ground with a baffle installed. This is the best adjustable measure I have found for the 1.7-1.9 grain loads for 32ACP! In fact up to my 2.2 - 2.3 grain loads it is the most consistent. I have also loaded 25ACP with this measure and it was good down to about 1.4 grains.
My last measure is the RCBS Little Dandy. This is a different concept in a measure, almost like the Lee dippers with a hopper and no guess work. This measure will mount in steel bar on the RCBS stand, just like the Uniflow with a die nut top and bottom. Not how I use it... I load my loading blocks and hold the measure on each case mouth and rotate the rotor to drop the charge. Does not sound like a big deal, but this really does save time! The only gotcha is that you have to have a rotor that drops the charge you want. You can fudge them smaller with a drop of wax, but they can fall out and must be monitored. You could do it with epoxy or JB Weld, but that becomes a permanent mod and you no longer have a listed rotor. You can also go larger by drilling a small indent in the bottom of the rotor chamber, but again now not a stock rotor. There is an adjustable rotor for the unit made by a third party. This defeats the idea of the known volumetric chamber and requires a scale to set up for each use. The stock rotors are very consistent. There are 28 stock rotors 00, 0 - 26. This is primarily a pistol measure due to the size of the rotors. I love this measure for my cast 380 loads and 22 TCM cast loads.
As you can see, I do not have any of the high end measures and I do not run a progressive press. I spent a lot of time around Dillon 1050's loading commercial ammo with a good buddy. Progressives are perfect in that environment, but I have always been uneasy with the concept and the lack of supervision at each stage. I surely would not load any tiny cases on one, the risk is just to high. It would be nice to make 223, 9mm and maybe 45's on one, but I am just not willing to give up the single stage control. So, I load and cast all winter and shoot all summer.
What measures would I like to try?
I would like to try one of the Lyman 55's with the third party adjustment setups. It would be interesting to have a possibly consistent way to set and preset the measure.
I would also like a Lee Deluxe PPM, not sure that it fixes any of the weaknesses of the PPM but it is a better built measure. I have not found the overwhelming urge to spend 65+ bux on a Lee product and have not found one on the used market yet. I would also like to give the Hornady and Redding a run for their money, but again... more than I want to drop on a measure for my hobby.
My goto measure is an RCBS Uniflow with a small drum mounted to the right of my RC2. How a measure is mounted makes a difference. I have this one mounted in the older RCBS stand with the steel arm extended out from the bench. The stand is about 4 inches past the edge of the bench with a 1x4 oak mounting board. I can sit in my chair and fill bench blocks, rotate just a little and charge a complete block and repeat. For me, this measure is a good universal measure, but I do not like it for very small cases and a couple of different powders. It handles the basics, W231, Unique, bullseye, all the Dots, 2400, H110, 4227, 4895 really well and does so with good accuracy. I do not like it with very long stick powders, feels very crunchy and starts to vary some, so I then get close and trickle up to what I need. Also some of the fine powders feel bad, but measure well. This measure gets no love when dropping into the 2.2 grain and lower charges, it is not consistent for me.
I do have an old Lyman 55, very good for tiny charges and somewhat a pain to set up. The 3 adjustment cavity seems to work the best if the cavity is deep with the adjusters set to form a straight side wall. This will throw down to the 1.7 and 1.8 grains for my light 32ACP loads and is consistent. I have never used one with any of the third party chamber mods and would love to but can't afford them when they come up. I would kill to have a drop tube for it that was longer and threaded on the outside for a standard die nut and RCBS threaded drop tubes, then I could mount it properly in the RCBS stand and I think it would work better yet. The knocker is key with this measure, does slow the workflow down just a little. Accuracy increased after I made a baffle for it.
I also use a Lee PPM. What a piece of crap! I did lap in the drum to help with the powder dust fallout, it did help but did not fix it. The lever is way to short for general use, the drop tube stinks and no chance of mounting it in a decent stand. I love the idea of the removable hopper, they got that one right. Again, it gains ground with a baffle installed. This is the best adjustable measure I have found for the 1.7-1.9 grain loads for 32ACP! In fact up to my 2.2 - 2.3 grain loads it is the most consistent. I have also loaded 25ACP with this measure and it was good down to about 1.4 grains.
My last measure is the RCBS Little Dandy. This is a different concept in a measure, almost like the Lee dippers with a hopper and no guess work. This measure will mount in steel bar on the RCBS stand, just like the Uniflow with a die nut top and bottom. Not how I use it... I load my loading blocks and hold the measure on each case mouth and rotate the rotor to drop the charge. Does not sound like a big deal, but this really does save time! The only gotcha is that you have to have a rotor that drops the charge you want. You can fudge them smaller with a drop of wax, but they can fall out and must be monitored. You could do it with epoxy or JB Weld, but that becomes a permanent mod and you no longer have a listed rotor. You can also go larger by drilling a small indent in the bottom of the rotor chamber, but again now not a stock rotor. There is an adjustable rotor for the unit made by a third party. This defeats the idea of the known volumetric chamber and requires a scale to set up for each use. The stock rotors are very consistent. There are 28 stock rotors 00, 0 - 26. This is primarily a pistol measure due to the size of the rotors. I love this measure for my cast 380 loads and 22 TCM cast loads.
As you can see, I do not have any of the high end measures and I do not run a progressive press. I spent a lot of time around Dillon 1050's loading commercial ammo with a good buddy. Progressives are perfect in that environment, but I have always been uneasy with the concept and the lack of supervision at each stage. I surely would not load any tiny cases on one, the risk is just to high. It would be nice to make 223, 9mm and maybe 45's on one, but I am just not willing to give up the single stage control. So, I load and cast all winter and shoot all summer.
What measures would I like to try?
I would like to try one of the Lyman 55's with the third party adjustment setups. It would be interesting to have a possibly consistent way to set and preset the measure.
I would also like a Lee Deluxe PPM, not sure that it fixes any of the weaknesses of the PPM but it is a better built measure. I have not found the overwhelming urge to spend 65+ bux on a Lee product and have not found one on the used market yet. I would also like to give the Hornady and Redding a run for their money, but again... more than I want to drop on a measure for my hobby.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
There is a set up for 550's that allows for the use the macnine with conventional powder measure. The AT500 die is used with a black funnel. I can have the best of both worlds. This AT550 die goes on Station #2. I just finished setting up for 308 and 30-06 using this arrangement. Using a Uniflow with trickler has been standard here on the hill for many years. I can reinstall Dillon powder measure when finished.
I use Uniflow's almost exclusively where possible. There was a two part article in the recent Blue Press pitting a Uniflow vs. the 550. I use the Lyman 55 setup for blackpowder. I would suggest having both rotors for a Uniflow.
Added: The best thing to do on all this gear is to buy second hand. I've developed an eye for bullet molds, dies, and other items. I have several Uniflow's that came second hand p[us a ton of other stuff.
I use Uniflow's almost exclusively where possible. There was a two part article in the recent Blue Press pitting a Uniflow vs. the 550. I use the Lyman 55 setup for blackpowder. I would suggest having both rotors for a Uniflow.
Added: The best thing to do on all this gear is to buy second hand. I've developed an eye for bullet molds, dies, and other items. I have several Uniflow's that came second hand p[us a ton of other stuff.
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CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
I forgot the Dillon powder dispenser. This one is also top Shelf and works wonderfully well.
Ill condemn LEE scales and Dispensers but Im no Hypocrite and LEE makes some wonderfully helpful items. How could a thread about this topic be without the LEE Scoops!! As mentioned they are wonderful!
CW
Ill condemn LEE scales and Dispensers but Im no Hypocrite and LEE makes some wonderfully helpful items. How could a thread about this topic be without the LEE Scoops!! As mentioned they are wonderful!
CW