I'm sure we've got at least a few members who've competed in various matches with trapdoor Springfields. What do you look for in a potential match rifle? The more I think about it, the more I think I may be overlooking something following my rules of thumb (serial #>30k, perfect bore, stock not dried and brittle).
Trapdoor for competition
- Thread starter JustJim
- Start date
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
I do not have any specifics when it comes to a trapdoor itself aside from stay with black powder. As far as being competitive, a good set of sights is a must. My preference, sorry to sound like a snob, MVA (Montana Vintage Arms) Long Range Buffalo Soule rear, a Hadley eyecup, and a Spirit Level front without or without windage. The Soule has the windage adjustment on the base and is not necessary to loosen anything to make and windage adjustment, just reach up and turn. Ask around, get different opinions, they are not cheap, but you can spend money right or spend it twice. It's a great journey, have fun!
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
We have a lot of shooters who have used Trapdoors in BPCR silhouette matches. They ran the gambit of production models/dates. Don't see them much anymore since most are shooting reduced load smokeless now.
The action is weak so the tip to only use BP is one to be heeded. They also do not lend themselves to cleaning. You either need to use a flexible cleaning rod to go from the breech or clean from the muzzle end.
I don't believe I ever saw a trapdoor at a match with a tang sight mounted. Since there is no tang, they don't really lend themselves to one. But I know someone sold a sight that was meant to go into the wood. The majority of the shooters agreed that the Buffington sight was the way to go on a trapdoor. Many shot the entire match offhand with their trapdoor and did quite well. And yes, a tang sight like a Soule with a globe front will give you a better chance at doing well. But, if you were looking to set records and beat everyone on the firing line, you would not be looking to shoot a trapdoor.
They are a fine BP rifle if you accept their limitations. They are not a Rolling Block, Hepburn, High Wall, Sharps, or Ballard.
The action is weak so the tip to only use BP is one to be heeded. They also do not lend themselves to cleaning. You either need to use a flexible cleaning rod to go from the breech or clean from the muzzle end.
I don't believe I ever saw a trapdoor at a match with a tang sight mounted. Since there is no tang, they don't really lend themselves to one. But I know someone sold a sight that was meant to go into the wood. The majority of the shooters agreed that the Buffington sight was the way to go on a trapdoor. Many shot the entire match offhand with their trapdoor and did quite well. And yes, a tang sight like a Soule with a globe front will give you a better chance at doing well. But, if you were looking to set records and beat everyone on the firing line, you would not be looking to shoot a trapdoor.
They are a fine BP rifle if you accept their limitations. They are not a Rolling Block, Hepburn, High Wall, Sharps, or Ballard.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The CBA (Cast Bullet Association) has a Big Bore class for military rifles. They have to be all "as issued" except for the front sight can be higher to get a 100 yard zero. I won the 2012 nationals in that class and set two records that stood for about five years.
The rifle was an 1873 model, buckhorn sights, with the front sight 1/8 inch higher. While the outside was used and dented, it was all original wood and furniture with a nice but not perfect bore. I feel it is important for the action, barrel and lock plate fit the stock very well. Many have had parts swapped out and do not fit well. The load was 24 grains of Al2400 with the Lee 405 HB bullet sized .462", the same as the inside of a fired case. (As far as I know, the only time a Lee bullet ever won a big time match.)
The trapdoor action is not "weak", just misunderstood. The lock cam is below the center line of thrust, the more pressure the tighter it locks. However, it is just forged iron that is casehardened, so I don't' load powders faster than 2400 or loads that are faster than 1200 f/s no matter what powder is used. There was a good article in "Precision Shooting" years ago where they tried to blow up trapdoors. They always blew up over the chamber and never came unlocked.
FWIW
The rifle was an 1873 model, buckhorn sights, with the front sight 1/8 inch higher. While the outside was used and dented, it was all original wood and furniture with a nice but not perfect bore. I feel it is important for the action, barrel and lock plate fit the stock very well. Many have had parts swapped out and do not fit well. The load was 24 grains of Al2400 with the Lee 405 HB bullet sized .462", the same as the inside of a fired case. (As far as I know, the only time a Lee bullet ever won a big time match.)
The trapdoor action is not "weak", just misunderstood. The lock cam is below the center line of thrust, the more pressure the tighter it locks. However, it is just forged iron that is casehardened, so I don't' load powders faster than 2400 or loads that are faster than 1200 f/s no matter what powder is used. There was a good article in "Precision Shooting" years ago where they tried to blow up trapdoors. They always blew up over the chamber and never came unlocked.
FWIW
Thanks guys--RicinYakima I was hoping you'd chime in. I joined the CBA a few weeks ago, the Big Bore military match was one I was looking at maybe competing in. Are most/all of the shooters using smokeless? I've stayed away from smokeless since toasting a barrel with too many rounds loaded with Red Dot. I'll have to give 2400 a try if I can ever find enough to experiment with. I did have one rifle that really liked 3031. I'm currently shooting BP and the Lee hollowbase 405, loaded to match issue velocities.
I've been shooting trapdoors since I was 12 or so, but never in formal paper-target competition. Ric, you obviously had a competitive rifle--what size were your groups? My current rifle is one of the more-accurate I've owned when shooting military-equivalent ammo, but I haven't really tried working up loads for it yet. I don't recall the year of production, 1881 maybe. It is set up with the 1879 buckhorn sight.
Fit of the action to the wood is something I'd not considered much, not sure why. Probably escaped my mind because once the action width was settled the action/barrel/stock didn't change much. For purposes of CBA competion, is it allowed to seal the barrel channel? I've had a couple of shooters where basically stabilizing the wood with epoxy thinned to penetrate the wood seemed beneficial (probably consolidating some incipent cracks).
Snakeoil, aside from the Officers Model, I've seen a few trapdoors set up with tang sights pre-1900 or so. They seem to have all been on rifles used for target shooting. They inlet the base into the wood, rather than extending the tang. It didn't seem quite as "solid" a mounting as on the Sharps/rolling blocks/etc. I've thought about setting one up with tang sights and a windage-adjustable front sight but never got around to it.
I've been shooting trapdoors since I was 12 or so, but never in formal paper-target competition. Ric, you obviously had a competitive rifle--what size were your groups? My current rifle is one of the more-accurate I've owned when shooting military-equivalent ammo, but I haven't really tried working up loads for it yet. I don't recall the year of production, 1881 maybe. It is set up with the 1879 buckhorn sight.
Fit of the action to the wood is something I'd not considered much, not sure why. Probably escaped my mind because once the action width was settled the action/barrel/stock didn't change much. For purposes of CBA competion, is it allowed to seal the barrel channel? I've had a couple of shooters where basically stabilizing the wood with epoxy thinned to penetrate the wood seemed beneficial (probably consolidating some incipent cracks).
Snakeoil, aside from the Officers Model, I've seen a few trapdoors set up with tang sights pre-1900 or so. They seem to have all been on rifles used for target shooting. They inlet the base into the wood, rather than extending the tang. It didn't seem quite as "solid" a mounting as on the Sharps/rolling blocks/etc. I've thought about setting one up with tang sights and a windage-adjustable front sight but never got around to it.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
My personal experience with front windage sights is they are a PITA during a match. I realize that for matches like Raton, you may have a day when you need the front and the rear windage.
Interesting. Never paid that much attention to how they locked up. It's been the accepted belief that the trapdoor is weak. But all you need is one crotchety old guy, or worse, an author to make that statement and it becomes fact.
I've never heard of a trapdoor blowing up. I suppose that some have when idiots have loaded smokeless express loads for them.
StrawHat
Well-Known Member
The “myth” of the weak trapdoor rifles can be traced backed to the Model 1864 and 1865 Trapdoors. Both were built by milling the breech end of the muzzleloading musket away then sweating and screwing the hinge block for the trapdoor to the barrel. The bores were reamed smooth and a rifled liner was sweated into place. The hammer was heated and forged to hit the firing pin. These converted rifles were totally new concept. By 1868 the breechblock was part of a separate action or receiver into which the barrel was screwed. Some of the barrels used were converted wartime musket barrels but by the end of this Model, all the barrels were new.
The converted barrels are interesting. The .58 caliber bores were reamed smooth with a reamer that produced three different diameters throughout the bore. Largest at the breech and smallest at the muzzle. The liner looked like a military Mauser rifle barrel, a stepped “barrel” matching the reamed bore. Later barrels were made by the traditional method. All were rifled with three grooves. Also, these rifles, and all Models from 1866 until the Model 1873, were 50 caliber and those 3 grooves made 1 turn in 42 inches.
By 1873 all musket parts had been used up and the Model 1873 was built with the finest materials available, at that time. Rifling was still 3 grooves but the twist had been tightened to 1 turn in 22“ to accommodate the small bore (45 caliber) bullet.
Kevin
The converted barrels are interesting. The .58 caliber bores were reamed smooth with a reamer that produced three different diameters throughout the bore. Largest at the breech and smallest at the muzzle. The liner looked like a military Mauser rifle barrel, a stepped “barrel” matching the reamed bore. Later barrels were made by the traditional method. All were rifled with three grooves. Also, these rifles, and all Models from 1866 until the Model 1873, were 50 caliber and those 3 grooves made 1 turn in 42 inches.
By 1873 all musket parts had been used up and the Model 1873 was built with the finest materials available, at that time. Rifling was still 3 grooves but the twist had been tightened to 1 turn in 22“ to accommodate the small bore (45 caliber) bullet.
Kevin
I've seen one trapdoor "blow up". The load was almost redline for the shooter's Ruger #3. We never did manage to get the action open; the barrel was cracked. Instant parts gun.
I've seen a couple more that fired out of battery, which is a rather spectacular fireworks display with BP loads! Common factor in both was the use of pistol primers, resulting in peening of the breech face which "pinched" the firing pin in the forward position. Both were repaired by replacing the receiver and breechblock assembly. After seeing those, I habitually run a fingertip across the face of my breechblock after shooting.
If I could find brass, and an 1866 with a decent bore, I'd have one for a recreational shooter and make my current 45-70 trapdoor be a dedicated match rifle. I've always liked the 1866, they were good enough for my gggrandpa! (Actually, he was a part-time market hunter and I suspect it was just the cheapest "big" rifle he could get. He spent a young fortune on a .22 volley gun--and made it pay off--but didn't have much call for a bigger rifle.)
I've seen a couple more that fired out of battery, which is a rather spectacular fireworks display with BP loads! Common factor in both was the use of pistol primers, resulting in peening of the breech face which "pinched" the firing pin in the forward position. Both were repaired by replacing the receiver and breechblock assembly. After seeing those, I habitually run a fingertip across the face of my breechblock after shooting.
If I could find brass, and an 1866 with a decent bore, I'd have one for a recreational shooter and make my current 45-70 trapdoor be a dedicated match rifle. I've always liked the 1866, they were good enough for my gggrandpa! (Actually, he was a part-time market hunter and I suspect it was just the cheapest "big" rifle he could get. He spent a young fortune on a .22 volley gun--and made it pay off--but didn't have much call for a bigger rifle.)
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Just Jim,
Most shooters use smokeless, just because of the time limits on the matches are not going to let you wipe the bore, but you may be able to use a blow tube. The other reason is recoil. A two day match means 180 to 200 rounds of shooting. At the end of that year I was having floaters in my eye and the Doc said it was a broken blood vessel in the eye from recoil. 500 grain bullets shot a little better at 200 and 300 yards but you pay for it in recoil.
IMR 3031 and IMR4198 are used, as is SR4759 (extinct) and older 5744, don't know about the new 5744's. Guys that I knew who were loading Unique keep them subsonic, so it would be easy to "toast" a barrel with Red Dot.
"Refinishing" the stock is allowed, but not "glass bedding". Nobody ever asked me to take a rifle apart at a match. As long as you do not use oven cleaner or lye to try to take the oil out of the stock, you could use any wood product. My rifle came from the desert here and was very dry, so I used Benite to harden the wood, linseed to bind the fibers and finished the inside with thinned pure tung oil. Outside was raw linseed oil thinned with turpentine. There are some weak places in the stock where the action mates with the receiver.
Anything under 2 MOA is now competitive, over the 120 shot match. Ten years ago it was 2 1/2 MOA. The rifle can do better, but this shooter could not.
Ric
Most shooters use smokeless, just because of the time limits on the matches are not going to let you wipe the bore, but you may be able to use a blow tube. The other reason is recoil. A two day match means 180 to 200 rounds of shooting. At the end of that year I was having floaters in my eye and the Doc said it was a broken blood vessel in the eye from recoil. 500 grain bullets shot a little better at 200 and 300 yards but you pay for it in recoil.
IMR 3031 and IMR4198 are used, as is SR4759 (extinct) and older 5744, don't know about the new 5744's. Guys that I knew who were loading Unique keep them subsonic, so it would be easy to "toast" a barrel with Red Dot.
"Refinishing" the stock is allowed, but not "glass bedding". Nobody ever asked me to take a rifle apart at a match. As long as you do not use oven cleaner or lye to try to take the oil out of the stock, you could use any wood product. My rifle came from the desert here and was very dry, so I used Benite to harden the wood, linseed to bind the fibers and finished the inside with thinned pure tung oil. Outside was raw linseed oil thinned with turpentine. There are some weak places in the stock where the action mates with the receiver.
Anything under 2 MOA is now competitive, over the 120 shot match. Ten years ago it was 2 1/2 MOA. The rifle can do better, but this shooter could not.
Ric
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Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Well, since we are talking trapdoors, I have on hanging on the rack above my computer. It was at my grandparents' house when I was a kid and I played with it regularly. The striker for the firing pin was missing back then. That could have been because there were 4 boys in that house when my Dad was a kid. They might have removed it to make it safe.
The lock is marked 1863. The trapdoor is marked 1870. It's a .50/70. Stock is deeply stamped 12 CO D, both on the left side of the stock and left side opposite the lock.
As a kid, I decided I was going to refinish it. I standed down the barrel and stock. Put a coat of varnish on the stock so now it looks more like a vintage Winchester. There are what appears to be match mark type serial numbers stamped at the rear of the barrel where it enters the receiver and directly behind it on the receiver. Number is 40927.
It is a shame I ruined the rifle by trying to refinish it when I was a kid. Bore looks like new. Should be a great shooter. Rear sight still has the spanner type screw so appears that it has never been touched.
My great uncle Joe was a retired Major in the US Army. The rifle may have come from him. My uncle Frank worked at Watervliet Arsenal so he might have brought it home as well. Uncle Frank died when I was 6 mos old. Joe was long gone before I was born. My Grandfather had no idea where it came from. It was always in the hall closet.
The lock is marked 1863. The trapdoor is marked 1870. It's a .50/70. Stock is deeply stamped 12 CO D, both on the left side of the stock and left side opposite the lock.
As a kid, I decided I was going to refinish it. I standed down the barrel and stock. Put a coat of varnish on the stock so now it looks more like a vintage Winchester. There are what appears to be match mark type serial numbers stamped at the rear of the barrel where it enters the receiver and directly behind it on the receiver. Number is 40927.
It is a shame I ruined the rifle by trying to refinish it when I was a kid. Bore looks like new. Should be a great shooter. Rear sight still has the spanner type screw so appears that it has never been touched.
My great uncle Joe was a retired Major in the US Army. The rifle may have come from him. My uncle Frank worked at Watervliet Arsenal so he might have brought it home as well. Uncle Frank died when I was 6 mos old. Joe was long gone before I was born. My Grandfather had no idea where it came from. It was always in the hall closet.
Should be an 1868; the 1870s didn't have the paired numbers on barrel/receiver. Sounds like a good "shooter"--please keep me in mind if you decide to trade it off!
2 MOA? I might be able to do that off the bench, not sure I could hold 10 shots that close offhand. I'll have to work on that. Yeah, recoil is a problem. We used to (early 2000s) shoot a match starting with 10 shots at 400, then 10 at 300, then 10 at 200, then 10 at 100, simulating a charge. Over time, there were fewer and fewer shooters, largely due to the recoil. Forty rounds in ~5 minutes gets to you!
2 MOA? I might be able to do that off the bench, not sure I could hold 10 shots that close offhand. I'll have to work on that. Yeah, recoil is a problem. We used to (early 2000s) shoot a match starting with 10 shots at 400, then 10 at 300, then 10 at 200, then 10 at 100, simulating a charge. Over time, there were fewer and fewer shooters, largely due to the recoil. Forty rounds in ~5 minutes gets to you!
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The off hand match is a side event, not part of the two day match. It is two targets of ten rounds each, for score, fired in ten minutes at 100 yards.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Can't argue with empirical data.
Attachments
From what I can see, the rifle doesn't look that bad. Cosmetically, it is certainly better than the rifle that became my current shooter! Mine had black spraypaint on all the metal. . . .
Most of the 1868s were produced in 1869 and 1870, and had blocks marked accordingly. They had matching serial numbers on the left side of the barrel and action.
The Model of 1870 entered production in October (IIRC) of 1870. They weren't serial numbered, at least on top. A few of the rifles and carbines had matching numbers on the bottom of the barrel and action, but I'm not sure why they bothered--unless they were tracking something on the carbines and the marked rifles were an overrun of some kind. But why the bottom?
Most of the 1868s were produced in 1869 and 1870, and had blocks marked accordingly. They had matching serial numbers on the left side of the barrel and action.
The Model of 1870 entered production in October (IIRC) of 1870. They weren't serial numbered, at least on top. A few of the rifles and carbines had matching numbers on the bottom of the barrel and action, but I'm not sure why they bothered--unless they were tracking something on the carbines and the marked rifles were an overrun of some kind. But why the bottom?
RBHarter
West Central AR
I have this 2-9/16" 10 ga that is marked under the fore stock 10. 62 . 4DR . 54GR or something very close to that it amounts to 10 ga 62mm 4 Dram 1.5oz shot . Lots of European arms especially doubles and fixed/flip sighted rifles are so marked with the regulated loads . It may well have just been an assembly habit to mark it under the stock to protect the marks .
Missionary
Well-Known Member
Shooting your Trapdoor in short timed matches can be helped alot by using 3F Goex. We get 10 rounds down the tube before any wet whipping needs done. We start at 60 grains compressed 1/8", cereal box wad and as much Cream of Wheat (COW) as needed to bring the OAL to best accuracy. Then start tweeking the amount of 3F. Your barrel will teach you alot.
Also your sights are regulated to a 500 grain RN cast. 40-1 works well in all our Trapdoors..
The Buffington Sight will serve you well in the "Military Class".
Also your sights are regulated to a 500 grain RN cast. 40-1 works well in all our Trapdoors..
The Buffington Sight will serve you well in the "Military Class".
I have a Model 1884 Trapdoor with " SMP 1889" impressed in the stock above the trigger.
I have never shot competition with this rifle.
My load is 31 gr. IMR 4198, 457124 HP weighing 375 gr, CCI LR primer in RP brass.
We were hitting a 24" saw blade at fairly consistently at 300yds.
I have yet to chronograph this load but it should be equivalent to the ball ammo velocity.
The Buffington sight was cranked up there pretty high.
It took a while to find the range but we finally got it tuned in.
Since we are talking trapdoors, I think I will take it out and shoot it today.
I have never shot competition with this rifle.
My load is 31 gr. IMR 4198, 457124 HP weighing 375 gr, CCI LR primer in RP brass.
We were hitting a 24" saw blade at fairly consistently at 300yds.
I have yet to chronograph this load but it should be equivalent to the ball ammo velocity.
The Buffington sight was cranked up there pretty high.
It took a while to find the range but we finally got it tuned in.
Since we are talking trapdoors, I think I will take it out and shoot it today.
StrawHat
Well-Known Member
JustJim,
If you were referring to my 1866, yes, I did restock it. Long story short, I got the barreled action. Was going to restore it but realized it was a cut barrel. And original parts are more than I was willing to consider. Decided to get a replica 1861 with a bad barrel. Slim pickings trying to find that unicorn! Stumbled upon a replica Mississippi 1841 with blood rash on the barrel. Got it for a song. Removed the barrel and wrapped the rest around the 1866 with fitting where needed (nearly everywhere!).
I have stripped and refinished that stock 3 or 4 times now. I finally got it where I like it. Not a true replica of anything but I like to think that it could have been something a gunsmith would have done to breathe new life into some parts.
Oh, it has several deer to it’s credit.
Kevin