Way off topic but this is incredibly sad...

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KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
So far there has been no evidence that indicates any malicious behavior was involved. The French government has indicated that they think it is an accident, possibly due to the renovation work.

If it was a terrorist/criminal act I figure there would be an announcement or manifesto released by now.

It wouldn't be the first time an old wooden structure has been accidently burned from a workman's actions.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Yeah, but this is either the 2nd or 3rd one in a few weeks. Seems odd at least.
 

Ian

Notorious member
One French expert says that there are
no trees in France large enough to remake the roof beams.

I speculated that to my wife last night. When the USS Constitution was being overhauled in the late 1980s a call was put out for standing/dead live oak trees. We sent Polaroids of the biggest ones we had which had just been killed by the blight. I figured there wasn't enough large enough standing live oak in all of Europe to rebuilt the cathedral roof.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
I read somewhere that there was 250 tons of lead in the cathedral/fire. If that is true, it would explain why it burnt so hot. Once that lead got hot, damned hard to get it cooled off. And can't imagine pouring water on the molten lead...
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I am pretty sure that the roof was lead sheet, not copper.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I noticed when the spire collapsed there was a big cloud of yellow smoke, kind of sulfurous looking. Not up on my chemistry or have any knowledge of cathedral construction. Any ideas?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
the heat would have turned a lot of stuff to oxides even if it wasn't on fire.

the dust could have been from the rock structure as much as anything else.
but hot lead could have reduced out a yellow like fluff if enough of it pooled up somewhere, adding in melted copper would have done the trick too.
just depends on what where and how much [shrug]
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
The color of the smoke was very yellow possibly lead being vaporized.
Very sad thing considering this is "Holy Week"
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
The roof has a grey-greenish cast to it, to my eye, I thought ancient copper or bronze sheeting for
the exterior. One report was that after a while the fire when to green for a while. That would
definitely be copper burning up.
But, hard to tell for sure from so far away. Either metal is an exceptionally durable exterior surface.

The cathedral at Bayeux has a lot of lead sheeting capping the top surfaces of the flying buttresses, lining all
the gutters, and lead pipes inside the gargoyle rain spouts. I believe it uses slate tiles, IIRC.

JW, IMO being Holy Week is another reason to suspect arson by a terrorist.

Al, Looking around in Paris, what I see is sometimes sad, and my suspicions are also not PC, will be left alone in
this forum, too.

My wife and I have visited France many times since the early 70s, and we always spend time at cathedrals. My wife
has a degree in architecture, with a specialty in civil engineering. I am a mechanical engineer who specialized in
structural work, and I have been fascinated with ancient buildings since living in Italy in late grade school and
again when in college, being surrounded by aquaducts, the Colosseum, Tajan's Market and lots of other truly
spectacular ancient Roman engineering works. We both enjoy leaning about how the ancient engineers
and architects worked with the serious limitations of stone, brick and wood to produce these truly magnificent
and amazingly durable structures. We will often spend an half an hour to an hour walking around the exterior
of a cathedral or half a day in Trajan's market examining the structural details, and decorative details, too.
It contained about 80+ individual ~20ft by 40 ft arched roof shops, each able to be secured at night at
the front, much like a modern mall. This is all understandable from close observation.

If anyone is interested in spectacular Roman structural engineering, spend some time researching
Trajan's Market, a wonderful indoor and outdoor shopping mall built in Rome about 60 years after
Christ walked the Earth. Largely still intact, has been in constant use for various purposes for just
about 2000 years. Or the Pantheon, a fully intact, still magnificent 2000 year old domed building
with a 140 ft diam unsupported dome. It was the largest on the planet until the 1880s. Actually, the Pantheon
dome was made of poured concrete, with variable density aggregate, dense trertine aggregate near the
bottom for max strength, medium weight tuffa aggregate above that and pumice aggregate in the top
portion to lighten the concrete. By the 12th century, we still could not yet once again understand or
duplicate that engineering feat.



The cathedrals are only a bit less than half as old, but still spectacular engineering and art/architecture
too. Not much more was known in materials by the 12th century, so the same sort of design
constraints were upon the cathedral builders as the Roman builders. But they had learned some
great things in 1000 years, even through the Dark Ages.

The more I understand what they did and how they did it, the more impressed I am with the
ancient engineers, architects and building workmen, the artisans.

Bill
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
Heard a report this afternoon that suggested electrical issue and in the next breath it was still to dangerous and too hot to go in to ....... Grain of salt for the reports .
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I'll bet dollars to donuts it was an accident caused during the repairs. Until I hear otherwise from a reputable source I refuse to speculate.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Reputable means I hear it from professional engineers and LEs with real knowledge. The reason I don’t believe a lot of conspiracy nonsense is that I still have access to professional journals where articles are written by experts and not a first year journalism grad with political point to make.

You really think terrorist will climb all the way up on a roof to start a fire? Would have done more damage if it had started in the sanctuary.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Unless they were part of the repair crew and were already up there anyway. :)

OTOH, I agree with your basic point, Keith.
I get really frustrated when idiot web folks or TV folks say stuff about how "it was impossible for the
Twin Towers to fail that way without demolition charges placed in them". I have read the engineering
report on it, and I understand that it was a very unique type of structure, with essentially all the strength
in the external steel skins, not unlike a pop can in some ways. When the fires weakened the bar truss
floor joists which stabilize that skin against buckling, in addition to the holes punched by the planes, the
skin buckled, and much like the pop can you stand on while a friend thumps it with a finger.....it collapsed
dramatically for a couple of floors. Once the upper 20 stories or whatever had fallen a couple of floors - it
was an unstoppable million pound hammer gaining speed and energy on the way down.
But some brainless, education-free TV folks "know" it couldn't have happened that way. :angry:

OTOH, we DO know what the root cause was in NYC. And that makes me suspicious in the Notre Dame case
of the same root cause.

But, I agree with Keith - we need to wait until some real engineering report is released, fire investigators,
at least here, likely there too, are very skilled at sorting out arson. Perhaps it was an accident. My starting point
is skepticism but willing to hear what the investigators say, and I hope they are permitted to do their work free
of outside pressures.

Bill
 
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KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I can be skeptical about something easily enough, including the blathering conspiracy nonsense of the tin hat wearing fraternity. I’m an old man, I don’t have enough energy to waste it jumping to conclusions with zero evidence. I want facts from experts! Pre judging a situation often blinds you to all the facts. Yes, let’s let the pros do their job without interference.

The next fight will be between the traditionalists who want to restore the cathedral by duplicating the original structure including the huge wooden roof beams and the modernists who want a steel under structure covered to look original. There’s a billion euro pot of gold to argue over.

Get your drinks and popcorn and sit back...
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
That definitely is the next issue. I can see the traditionalist argument, but I imagine if one could reincarnate
the original makers and explain the fire resistant and rot resistant advantages of a steel roof frame which is
covered to look externally exactly like the original, THEY would be on board. Frankly, I doubt that they were
even slightly anamored with timber construction from an aesthetic standpoint. It was just the only thing
that was available at that time. The aesthetics are external, the internal is seen by 0.0001% of visitors or less.

Also, there is the rebuilding of the spire over the transept. I am sure some will say "We must build it back
as it was originally". OK, which "originally"? The 2018 'originally' or the 12th century 'originally'?
The 12th century one was a bell tower, and the 1850s vintage spire with statues of the 12 apostles
is the one that was just destroyed (fortunately the 12 bronze statues had already been removed as part
of the restoration).

The "the original designer gets his design respected for all time" ethic left the country centuries ago.
The Chartres cathedral is a perfect example.

Chartres.jpg

One tower spire burned (imagine that?) in the early 1500s, was rebuilt in an entirely
different tower, the left one, IIRC. But, the idea of never changing the design after
a rebuild is not a tradition, really. It certainly didn't hold 500 years ago.

But, they will not ask me and it is not our building. The French will figure out something.
We will observe.

Bill
 
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