Ways to consistently increase pressure for gallery loads

[BHuij]

I started sizing before seating the gas check because I found that for whatever reason, I was meeting up with a lot of resistance when I tried to size and seat in a single operation. I was ending up with crooked bases, smushed bullets, and weird finning, almost as if my ram was a little bit too small to completely fill up the die behind the bullet. Back then my bullets were around 11 BHN, and I had not yet polished up the inside of my Lee push-through die. I have since polished it up to 600 grit paper and I'm using much harder bullets, so I may want to try removing an extra sizing step from my process to see if that helps. I don't believe that my sizing is screwing up my bullets TBH, but I can't rule it out necessarily.

I am using the Lee collet crimp die to apply just barely enough crimp to remove the case mouth belling I do so I can seat without shaving. Based on the feel of the seating die when pushing bullets in, the gas check, and the hardness of the bullets, I also would guess that I'm not swaging my bullets down in the seating step. But it seems like a good idea to pull a few and double check before/after diameter with the mic.

I have not calibrated my micrometer before, no.

Anyway, good suggestions on things to check. Once I have had a chance to shoot these rounds and take some measurements I'll be sure to report back.

 

[Spindrift]

I have some combinations of bullets/gas checks where I also get «finning» when sizing nose first. Sizing base-first solves the problem. With flat nosed bullets, sizing base first cause no problems. With round nosed or pointy bullets, I use the NOE top punch holder for the ram (comes with the bushing based push- through sizer, which is marvellous, by the way), and an appropriate top punch.

 

[popper]

Might try sizing/seating with a slightly larger sizer, coat, then size again. Gets the check crimped on without all the distortion. Have you slugged the bore to make sure it is the same dia. all the way through? Hard alloy kinda works like jacketed, cast can have blowby if bore is large in the middle. MY 30/30 is like that due to the roll marks, etc.

 

[BHuij]

So yesterday's tests were conducted in less than ideal conditions. I usually go to an outdoor range that has sandbags available and nice solid rifle benches to shoot from. I'm recovering from the flu, and didn't want to spend 2 hours out in 40 degree weather to make it worse, so I decided to just do my tests at the indoor pistol range since I'm only shooting at 25 yards right now anyway.

I was able to wrangle a chair and use my bipod on the 18"x24" table in my lane, but it was nowhere near as good as shooting at the other range.

Of the jacketed loads I was using as a sanity check, my best 10-shot group was 4 MOA, using 22 grains of H335. Even though I haven't done any playing with OAL (just seated to the cannelure and called it good), and my 4 FMJ test loads were a full grain apart from each other, 4 MOA is still significantly better than my best groups with cast .223 bullets. Those come in at about 6 MOA. I highly suspect the rifle is NOT my limiting factor here, but my sub-optimal setup at the pistol range, and my own (lack of) shooting technique. I have a few of the FMJs left, so I'll dial in that load a bit more, and next time I'll make sure to shoot with the best support I can. I expect I can get at least 2 MOA with these bullets.

Of the cast loads, my best 10-shot group was 6 MOA, using 19.5 grains of H335. To be fair, I only tested HV loads of IMR 4895. So my next tests will be using these same bullets (I still have nearly 100 left from the same heat treat batch), centered around 19.5gr of H335, and pressure equivalent loads of IMR 4895.

To be honest, I don't think this bullet is going to be capable of 2 MOA with any combination of COWW alloy and either of these two powders. I think it's high time I took the expert advice and tried alloying in some additional antimony and tin. Once I find a weekend to do some more casting, that's next on the docket. If an improved alloy STILL won't get me 2 MOA with this mold, my last ditch effort before declaring this bullet incapable of 2 MOA from my rifle is perhaps trying one more powder, probably something slower than 4895.

 

[Ian]

If I couldn't get better than 4 moa with jax, I'd quit right there until I figured out the problem.

 

[fiver]

yeah.
holy cow, that's impressively bad.
at the minimum see if the barrel is screwed on tight. [then throw it in the garbage]

 

[BHuij]

Yeah next test includes more jacketed rounds to determine my problem. At this point, my biggest three guesses are:

1) I'm not a good shot
2) I was shooting somewhere in between offhand and awkwardly supported
3) I have not yet done proper load development. Out of 21, 22, 23, and 24 grains of H335 seated arbitrarily to the cannelure, 22 happened to be the best performer.

I'm not ready to leap to conclusions about barrel quality.

 

[freebullet]

1. Lol, we all have our days. Dry fire practice! You can do that in your living room for free. Do you shoot others into touching holes? Maybe the trigger is holding you back, had some issues with that when I first started in on ar's.
2. Midway has a nice filled shooting rest bag on clearance for like 12$. I picked up the wife some clearance shoes, a few goodies & they included it with the free shipping, even though it didn't qualify for free shipping. Could make one, testing from wobbly positions is tough.
3. I'll bet there is another node between 24-25gr. With just about any ole bullet. We have several buckets with various bullet designs, seated generic to fit 6 different rifles, 24-25gr pretty much always get us below 2moa easily with Jax.
4. Clean it, bench it, up it, & enjoy.

 

[Bret4207]

If you really think you're that bad a shot, get a 22lr and start practicing. I mean no insult, but if you don't expect to be able to shoot well under 2" at 25 yards off any kind of rest with about any rifle, scoped or open sights, then there's no sense in wasting time on other stuff. It's simply a waste of time to be worrying about cast and pressures and powder, OAL, etc if you aren't up to putting everything into the classic "one ragged hole" at 75 feet to start with.

 

[Intheshop]

No doubt about it,dry fire practice took me to the next level.

And throw in a good to,great trigger..... for me,and the hunting rigs,somewhere between 2-3#'s with just a tiny bit of "takeup"..... then clean repeatable break.

Also,not getting "married" to shooting off a bench.Yes they are a fact of life for precision targets and testing..... but for shear enjoyment and practicing hunting,would rather be out blasting beer cans from field positions.

 

[popper]

I have yet to see any post indicating he has shot some factory ammo to benchmark the rifle. So far, just jax & cast handloads. Slow fps means more time in barrel and more 'recoil' response. If a stock 223 AR won't do MOA, down the road. If it does, reload with jax until you get it doing OK. Then you can try cast. There is a path of 'least' resistence that leads to success faster. Shortcuts are a waste of time and resources. 22LR used to be a good learning tool but at the present cost of ammo, yipes. Dry firing an AR is NOT a good idea. I practiced on pistol with a red laser on the barrel and some soft rubber behind the trigger. If the dot moves, practice more.

 

[freebullet]

Dry firing an AR is NOT a good idea.

Don't tell mine, literally thousands of times, no issues. When you go to basic training you will dry fire more than live. Most of the training courses offered, same. Never been an issue that I've heard of. I think it's a great idea.

 

[Ian]

First I've heard of that too. Firing pin has a solid stop, doesn't worry me a bit.

 

[BHuij]

So...

I did some thinking today about how to move forward. Unless I'm much mistaken, the 55gr mold I have is not going to perform in my rifle at any cycling velocity. It's not impossible that switching up alloy and/or powder again might get me to 2 MOA, but it's unlikely. And even if it did... it's 2 MOA. Not 1 MOA, certainly not sub-MOA. In all likelihood, I need a new mold to get me to 2 MOA, let alone better. For a suitable NOE mold, I'm looking at $80 minimum just for a 2 cavity.

Add to that the fact that it's possible my AR happens to be particularly inaccurate for some reason. Add to that the fact that I REALLY need to practice my rifle technique. I'm far less confident and get far worse results shooting rifles than handguns.

I think it's time to sell this AR and put the money towards a nice bolt gun. Something I can practice with, something with a low CPR, something I can be confident in accuracy, and save the quest for crazy performance with cast .22 caliber from a gas gun for another day.

I got a couple of options and I'd like your advice:

1) I have a Ruger 10/22. I can throw a Barska scope on it for $32 if I buy one tomorrow. Heck, I can practice right now at 25-50 yards with ironsights and make some progress in my technique before even worrying about an optic. Problem is, without dumping money into it, it's probably not going to be a 1 MOA shooter. It also isn't likely to be much good for practicing out past about 100 yards for when I do eventually improve. Also if I just sell the AR and shoot .22LR for a while, I'm going to be sitting on a mold, case trimming tools, dies, etc. for .223 that aren't getting used. Which bothers me a bit. My Lee dies and mold probably have little or no resale value. And I'm not sure I see myself buying another AR in .223 in the future. Too many more interesting cartridges to play with in the AR platform. The nice thing about selling my AR and not needing to spend the money on a bolt gun for this purpose is that it gives me some money to put towards the 300 BLK pistol I have in the works...

2) There's a brand new Savage Axis in .223 available locally with a 3-9x scope for $280. I could probably cover most or all of that by selling my AR. Reloading light cast loads in .223 using IMR 4227 or something similar costs me around $0.10/round, so about as cheap as rifle ammo gets other than .22LR. It also lets me use my existing mold/dies, and leaves the door open for more experiments with better molds, higher velocity, ranges greater than 100 yards, etc. in the future for when I want to go there.

Either option gives me lots of very cheap practice and eliminates the complications introduced by doing all this in the AR platform.

Which would you do?

 

[Ian]

You asked for it......

Don't buy a Savage .223 for shooting cast.

Stock 10-22s are pretty accurate, much more so with expensive ammunition of the kind it likes, which will be expensive to determine.

I don't think NOE has a design that will shoot any better in your AR than the Lee you have now.

If I were you, and remember I'm not, I would likely stick with the AR and get to the bottom of why you can't get it to shoot well with anything. What you learn about that, be it shooting technique, bad barrel, loose barrel nut, optics, or whatever will be worth the effort in the long run. Worst case, you'll be into it for a couple hundred bucks more and will have a useful rifle as well as have learned a lot from the experience......which is what this is really all about anyway.

 

[BHuij]

So... the idea of a bolt gun in .223 is still pretty compelling to me. Care to expound on why the Savage isn't a good choice?

 

[Ian]

Go to the cba forum and read the results of many exhaustive years of head vs. wall JoeB posted. Took me a few days to read it all. I gave you the expurgated version, just say no. Or, buy it and be right back where you are right now with a rifle that wont shoot cast at any speed and puzzling over why. They be good with Jax, though, and a traditional rifle form is often easier for people to shoot, so it may be an improvement.

 

[BHuij]

Man. Reading it now. Thanks for the heads-up.

Guess I'll start with the 10/22 and go from there. It has taken the better part of a year, but I'm finally starting to get discouraged about this whole cast .223 in the AR thing. Seems like the most approachable step right now is improving my own shooting technique and letting the AR sit in the closet for a few months to think about what is has done.

As for reloading, I'll take a break from .223 for now and spend some quality time with my Mosin. Need a new mold there too for HV work, but I think I will first work up a mouse fart load with my existing mold that makes very small groups. I need a win right now.

 

[freebullet]

What kind of ar are we talking about?

 

[BHuij]

It's basically a civvy M4 clone on a budget. I was gifted the lower for Christmas. Built the lower out on my own and bought a BCA 16" 1:9 fully assembled upper from Palmetto to finish the rifle. After a few months I swapped out the carrying handle for an inexpensive 2.5-10x scope.