Another windy and cold day, but at least it wasn't raining like last Saturday! Last week I shot ML (GRRW Leman and the unfinished Kibler), today I shot 40 rounds of carbine loads from the trapdoor. I've pretty much got the load worked out, at least for cold weather--will need further testing when it heats up. This isn't the most-accurate 45-70 rifle I've owned, but it is very consistent.
What Did You Shoot Today?
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Ian
Notorious member
How'd the Kibler shoot for you?
I took it out to shoot to see if I needed to fine-tune comb line/cheekpiece/etc before finishing it, and to see how the sights would work for me (seriously low--as low as the sights on the original Dickert I did a bunch of testing with, so at least I knew what to expect). Given the weather, rickety bench, etc, I wasn't expecting a lot of accuracy.
I was alternating the Kibler and the GRRW Leman so the Kibler barrel could cool (low sights). I shot 3) 10 shot groups using 80/90/100 grains of FFg, a .018" patch lubed with neatsfoot oil, and a .530" roundball. Groups tightened up each time I increased the powder charge (no surprise, given the twist rate). After I finish the rifle, I'll center the sights at 25 yards and sight it at 110 yards, then work up an easy-loading charge for 25 and 50 yard teaching.
Thirty-three shots, no klatches, flashes in the pan, or hangfires. Touch hole is at 5/64" as per my usual. My initial impression of the lock appears correct: it is the best modern production lock I've seen, fully the equal of the Roller and Ditchburn I have tucked away for "someday". Trigger pull is OK--about what I want for teaching, which is a big part of why I bought this rifle. The GM barrel was cutting patches, but I'll fix that when I polish the crown, just like on every other GM barrel I've owned.
When I got home and cleaned it up, I found the wrist was cracked, so this week I fixed that and will probably rod the wrist to avoid future problems. Still need to get the rifle finished.
Ian
Notorious member
His locks do take the "fun" out of it. Mizzle have a caplock. Wish my .45 had a little tighter twist but it's easy to load and shoots well enough with hot powder charges.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Wooooo- wee were the conditions a challenge at today's match. Wind was blowing about 30 mph and then gusting and changing direction at the same time for the entire match. Today was the VT match with round gongs hung at 100, 150, 200, and 300 yds and 2 offhand shots at meerkats set at 400.
I started out by loading 0.5 gr more than I normally load for my Springfield. Gray hair, ya'know. So, I went there thinking I might struggle to get on the target if it was tough to spot misses. Got lucky and started at 150 yds. Took the top off the berm with the first two shots. Walked it down and after finding center, ended up shooting clean. 200 required that I use every inch of the target. It was starting to look like that extra half grain of powder was helping me buck the wind a bit better. Shot clean on those as well.
My poor partner Steve could not get his ammo to chamber. He was using brand new Lapua brass and two weeks ago it gave him fits. I had expected he would full length resize all the cases. I never looked closely to see where it was bucking his efforts to chamber at that time. The fix today was to hammer the bolt closed. Yeah, I know, sounds bad. But he would chamber the round but it would miss going home by just a tad so I would whack the back of the bolt with a hunk of 2x4 and he could close the bolt. My guess is out of the 60 rounds he fired, I had to hit the bolt for about 50 of them. He also had two dud primers. Just was not his day. But I kept him from getting frustrated, told him it was truly a team sport today and he cleaned the first two targets as well.
When we got to 300, I shot two distinct groups on the target, one in the 2:00 area and the other at 8:00. And this was with making both scope adjustments and hold corrections for every shot. I managed to shoot clean and earned every one of those suckers. Steve shot a similiar pattern to mine. Unfortunately, he put on in the dirt at 9:00. He had really bad arthritis in his trigger finger and it hinders him making a clean break every time.
Then we got to the 100 yd targets. I think my late buddy and former member here John was looking down and chuckling. The wind turned into a gale and just getting ON the target was a challenge. But, we diligently called the conditions and at 100 yds there were no mystery winds that we could not read. We both shot clean.
Then came the meerkats. We both took our turns getting scope settings off the bench. It took forever. We could rarely see the hits in the berm. I went thru the rest of my sighters until I only had 2 left for the match shots. I had shots impact 2 to 3 feet either side of the target WHEN Steve could see them. We could see all the bullet holes in the dirt. The challenge was seeing the new hole appear as the dirt was very wet. No explosions, just holes, small holes, in the dirt. Steve ended up shooting up the remainder of his ammo because he did not want to mess with pulling bullets and dumping powder. He got close a few times. But where the other shots went is anyone's guess. With all the guys on the firing line, there was only 1 hit on the sighting, meerkat swinger.
When it came time to take the 2 shots, we went one at a time, shooting offhand. I was the 3 shooter and knocked my first one over. Damn! If I hit the other one, I'll get a gold meerkat pin for the shooting box and shoot a perfect total score for the first time. But there was no joy in Mudville today, my friends. My bullet went low and left.
Then Steve, who has struggled all day with his ill-fitting ammo and who has a really bad back and admits he can't shoot offhand anymore, takes on his .32-40 that he just got back today, breech seats a round and hits that first meerkat right in the neck. It's the first time he's ever gotten a meetkat. When they dug thru the box of pins at the end of the shoot, there was only 1 meerkat left so we gave it to Steve. He left with a big grin on his face. I'm sure when he gets home, he'll be full length resizing his new cases. Oh, I forgot to mentions. While they were out painting targets between relays, I grabbed my calipers and started checking his fired brass and loaded cartridges. I thought that perhaps the neck wall was thicking on the Lapua brass. But nope, it was 0.015. I then measured the neck on a measured case and compared it to a fired case and both were 0.346". So, I took one of his loaded cartridges and painted it with a Sharpie all around the neck and shoulder and half-way down the case. He chambered it and I had to hammer the bolt closed. He fired and when he ejected it, it was clear that it had hit on the shoulder. So, he needs to push those shoulders back.
Next week is a .22 match so he 's got two weeks to crank out some good ammo. Although I suspect he'll be shooting the .32-40 in then next centerfire match. He was happy as a clam with his new breech seater and bullet tray. And I also removed the ejector assembly from the rifle so it only extracts now, which makes thing easier for him.
I started out by loading 0.5 gr more than I normally load for my Springfield. Gray hair, ya'know. So, I went there thinking I might struggle to get on the target if it was tough to spot misses. Got lucky and started at 150 yds. Took the top off the berm with the first two shots. Walked it down and after finding center, ended up shooting clean. 200 required that I use every inch of the target. It was starting to look like that extra half grain of powder was helping me buck the wind a bit better. Shot clean on those as well.
My poor partner Steve could not get his ammo to chamber. He was using brand new Lapua brass and two weeks ago it gave him fits. I had expected he would full length resize all the cases. I never looked closely to see where it was bucking his efforts to chamber at that time. The fix today was to hammer the bolt closed. Yeah, I know, sounds bad. But he would chamber the round but it would miss going home by just a tad so I would whack the back of the bolt with a hunk of 2x4 and he could close the bolt. My guess is out of the 60 rounds he fired, I had to hit the bolt for about 50 of them. He also had two dud primers. Just was not his day. But I kept him from getting frustrated, told him it was truly a team sport today and he cleaned the first two targets as well.
When we got to 300, I shot two distinct groups on the target, one in the 2:00 area and the other at 8:00. And this was with making both scope adjustments and hold corrections for every shot. I managed to shoot clean and earned every one of those suckers. Steve shot a similiar pattern to mine. Unfortunately, he put on in the dirt at 9:00. He had really bad arthritis in his trigger finger and it hinders him making a clean break every time.
Then we got to the 100 yd targets. I think my late buddy and former member here John was looking down and chuckling. The wind turned into a gale and just getting ON the target was a challenge. But, we diligently called the conditions and at 100 yds there were no mystery winds that we could not read. We both shot clean.
Then came the meerkats. We both took our turns getting scope settings off the bench. It took forever. We could rarely see the hits in the berm. I went thru the rest of my sighters until I only had 2 left for the match shots. I had shots impact 2 to 3 feet either side of the target WHEN Steve could see them. We could see all the bullet holes in the dirt. The challenge was seeing the new hole appear as the dirt was very wet. No explosions, just holes, small holes, in the dirt. Steve ended up shooting up the remainder of his ammo because he did not want to mess with pulling bullets and dumping powder. He got close a few times. But where the other shots went is anyone's guess. With all the guys on the firing line, there was only 1 hit on the sighting, meerkat swinger.
When it came time to take the 2 shots, we went one at a time, shooting offhand. I was the 3 shooter and knocked my first one over. Damn! If I hit the other one, I'll get a gold meerkat pin for the shooting box and shoot a perfect total score for the first time. But there was no joy in Mudville today, my friends. My bullet went low and left.
Then Steve, who has struggled all day with his ill-fitting ammo and who has a really bad back and admits he can't shoot offhand anymore, takes on his .32-40 that he just got back today, breech seats a round and hits that first meerkat right in the neck. It's the first time he's ever gotten a meetkat. When they dug thru the box of pins at the end of the shoot, there was only 1 meerkat left so we gave it to Steve. He left with a big grin on his face. I'm sure when he gets home, he'll be full length resizing his new cases. Oh, I forgot to mentions. While they were out painting targets between relays, I grabbed my calipers and started checking his fired brass and loaded cartridges. I thought that perhaps the neck wall was thicking on the Lapua brass. But nope, it was 0.015. I then measured the neck on a measured case and compared it to a fired case and both were 0.346". So, I took one of his loaded cartridges and painted it with a Sharpie all around the neck and shoulder and half-way down the case. He chambered it and I had to hammer the bolt closed. He fired and when he ejected it, it was clear that it had hit on the shoulder. So, he needs to push those shoulders back.
Next week is a .22 match so he 's got two weeks to crank out some good ammo. Although I suspect he'll be shooting the .32-40 in then next centerfire match. He was happy as a clam with his new breech seater and bullet tray. And I also removed the ejector assembly from the rifle so it only extracts now, which makes thing easier for him.
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
Ric - could it be the original inspection before the rifle went out the door originally (vs the rifle coming back to the Arsenal and being inspected/stamped as it left)?
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Could it be? Yes. In 1942 the Army was buying everything it could in 30/06 like Remington Model 720's and Winchester Model 70's. Normally these were proofed and stamped with the Ordnance "bomb". However, "training" rifles in 22LR were not proofed and had an acceptance stamp of the facility that accepted them. Most of these were very heavily used and are not found in good condition.
These training rifles were for basic marksmanship training, as the average American in 1942 was not familiar with firearms. Many clerks, cooks and bakers did their qualifications with 22's rather than the 1903 Springfield. If you were a country boy or a high school shooter, you got put into the combat arms. City boys did the behind the lines work unless they volunteered. It was 1944 before city boys were assigned to the Infantry because we needed that many bodies.
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
Well - this one didn't get much use! Maybe it came here to Redstone Arsenal as a trainer. And not much went on here back then... All I know is, it is in GREAT shape, correct proofs and a rack # button impressed into stock, Peep sights (Lyman 57/Redfield 65 - which having to replace with higher Lyman 17), but no Ordnance Bomb or US Property (course, back then they were pumping things out/may have skipped those things) - and was in my FIL's estate. I have no clue where/how he got it. 30+ NASA Engineer/Master Mason here. And people would give him guns. I assume someone gave it to him - he was not a competitive target shooter as far as I know. Having said THAT, I DO know from him that, at end of Korean War, he was such a good 1911 shot that the Army offered him an AMU billet, but he would have had to reenlist and he said no way.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
That is a very real possibility. I have a Springfield M2 from The Dalles, OR, Rifle and Pistol Club. During WW2 there was an USAAF training field and mechanic's school there. At the end of the war, all of the training 22's were given to the club because they supplied the instructors for the soldiers.
Ian
Notorious member
Out testing homemade black powder after work. Tried a new formula using Tree of Heaven obtained from a neighbor's tree with permission earlier this week and cooked in the retort night before last. Many folks rave about ToH and Pawlonia (sp?) for BP charcoal but I'm not terribly impressed. Not knowing how the ToH charcoal would behave, I mixed it at 77/13/10. It didn't do badly at all, but was a full 50 fps slower than my 78/13/9 Black Willow. The ToH started leaving a carbon ring on the second shot and the ramrod needed a bump to fully seat the ball the last 1/2" after that. It wasn't terribly dirty but not terribly clean, either, for the velocity I was getting (1650 fps). At 1650 my willow mix barely leaves a ring at all even after a dozen or more shots. At 1725 fps (55 grains weight and volume matching, polished powder) the willow starts to leave a chamber ring but it stabilizes after three shots and doesn't get any worse. The fact that the velocity of ToH was lower and it was slightly more dirty turned me off, experiment complete with the conclusion that 78/13/9 is the best stuff by far I've come up with using my methods. Polishing the powder for 12 hours in a toy rock tumbler gained about 25 fps with no deleterious effects, cured the dusting issue, and makes the powder pour even better than it did before from a horn. I think I'm done with powder development at this point, having produced an accurate, reliable, repeatable method and recipe that equals Goex power, has accurate density, and is much, much cleaner.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I realize you have a thread on making your BP. I probably should read the entire thread. I know I will never try to make it. My interest is pure curiosity. Love to learn new stuff.
Back in the day, was there a preferred wood used. One would think that trees that were plentiful, fast growing, or both would be desirable.
Back in the day, was there a preferred wood used. One would think that trees that were plentiful, fast growing, or both would be desirable.
Paul Bunyan Range Cast Bullet Match, .32-20 CPA with 205 grain tapered bullet from a John Schauf mold, 13.5 grains AA 4100, Remington 7 1/2 primer and Starline case. First match of the season for Paul Bunyan. Rain, the wind was tricky and cloudy. April can only be better.
Ian
Notorious member
I summed it up in the last post in that thread. I should add a comment on charcoals.
Swiss uses Alder Buckthorn for charcoal. Goex has used several things but I think silver maple is still what they use, or did until they shut down. Cottonwood was used in the Civil War, as was Black Willow. The general take from the pyros and sporting powder enthusiasts is that willow is a solid standard and you can go up or down from there, with Alder Buckthorn, Pawlonia, and Tree of Heaven being the best and firs, spruce, cottonwood, poplar, aspen, etc. being serviceable.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I will go back and read the rest of your thread. I wondered what it is that makes the charcoal different depending on the wood. I found an article that talks about the properties of charcoal and they mention the ash content and how some types of charcoal are more acidic than others depending on the tars left behind from the process. I then did a search for charcoal used in gunpowder and found this short abstract that I thought might interest others here. So, I'm pasting it below.
The first article shows a SEM photo of the structure and it looks like a chunk of black Swiss cheese. But they never mentioned that property in the write-up from a standpoint of how that structure affects the usefulness of the charcoal. But the abstract below mentions surface area and that I believe is the key. We know that different granulations of BP will burn at different rates and this is due to differences in surface area. But the abstract describes how the size of the pores in the charcoal affect surface area as well.
Here's the abstract.
A series of experiments are described which identify those characteristics of charcoals which are important for gunpowder manufacture. Charcoals from Alder Buckthorn, Alder, Beech and Douglas Fir woods were prepared by carbonization under nitrogen in the heat-treatment temperature range 523 to 1173 K. The charcoals were characterized by elemental analysis, differential thermal analysis, measurement of spontaneous ignition temperature, morphology using scanning electron microscopy, surface-area assessment using carbon dioxide as adsorbate, mercury porosimetry and microstrength analyses. Results indicate that for charcoals with acceptable carbon contents of 70 to 80 wt %, extremely fine control of carbonization conditions is required. The surface area and carbon content of the charcoal increased rapidly on heat treatment. The surface area of the charcoal reached values of −400 m2 g−1. Mercury porosimetry indicated that Alder Buckthorn and Douglas Fir charcoals had cumulative pore volumes greater than Alder charcoal and substantially greater than Beech charcoal. The Beech charcoal was the most friable of the three hardwood charcoals tested using microstrength analysis. Alder Buckthorn and Alder charcoals are recommended for gunpowder manufacture.
Ian
Notorious member
Interesting. There's more to the charcoal puzzle than just pore size though. 'Activated" coconut hull charcoal is very high in carbon compounds compared to other charcoals and is well known for its open pore distribution, yet it makes terrible gunpowder. Silicon compounds are also a bad thing in wood because they melt and react to form glass in the barrel.
It looks like Alder Buckthorn has the pores, the strength, the hydrocarbon levels, and low ash content to be pretty much the best.
Anyone have any Alder Buckthorn bushes they want to trim and send me? I'll give it ago and compare to what I already have.
It looks like Alder Buckthorn has the pores, the strength, the hydrocarbon levels, and low ash content to be pretty much the best.
Anyone have any Alder Buckthorn bushes they want to trim and send me? I'll give it ago and compare to what I already have.
JonB
Halcyon member
Is Alder Buckthorn the same as common/European Buckthorn?
On Sunday, I will be at my buddy's veggie farm that has common/European Buckthorn growing on the edges of his field, if the snow ain't too deep, I sure could cut some. They are a troublesome nuisance for him. They are small, mostly the trunks are an inch or so, biggest I've ever seen was 3"