When do you think common folk will be able to buy primes again?

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popper

Well-Known Member
I'll try to keep the .... out of it. CEOs of commercial gun stuff see the ... pressure to eliminate their product from us. They will reduce the forecast for production and sales. So, in addition to the ongoing inflation here and some profiteering, expect reduced components availability. LGS don't carry much anymore, online stores post 'out-of-stock' due to high supplier $ AND reduced supplier inventory. Several friends have tried to get newer autos fixed, no workers or PARTS available. Not due to port congestion, just slowing economy.
 

dannyd

Active Member
You guys are scaring me.

I don't fish.
The place is scaring other people from up North too; we have had a wave of people from north moving to Florida and finding out we have 46 different snakes good thing only 6 are venomous.

This is a tool you definitely need if you like near the swamps. ;)


5502E30D-CE7F-46C0-98D7-5DAB6C04C316.jpeg
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I'll try to keep the .... out of it. CEOs of commercial gun stuff see the ... pressure to eliminate their product from us. They will reduce the forecast for production and sales. So, in addition to the ongoing inflation here and some profiteering, expect reduced components availability. LGS don't carry much anymore, online stores post 'out-of-stock' due to high supplier $ AND reduced supplier inventory. Several friends have tried to get newer autos fixed, no workers or PARTS available. Not due to port congestion, just slowing economy.
I disagree.

When you are selling dandelion seeds for a dollar each, as fast as you can grow them, and you have hoards of customers lined up waving cash at you, wanting to buy more– you don’t cut production. You make dandelion seeds as fast as you can and sell them for as much as you can until:

  • The buyers stop buying them, Or
  • A competitor forces you to lower your price. In which case you lower your price but continue to make a profit.
CEO’s don’t get paid to lose money. They get paid to make a profit for the shareholders.
 

todd

Well-Known Member
You guys are scaring me.

I don't fish.

i had to quit fishing (trout mostly) about 10 years ago (had a stroke). i never liked ponds and lakes, i never could sit and fish, so i was a stream and river fisherman. i got pretty good at it, except for the fact i had to walk to miles to find my truck. lol



I disagree.

When you are selling dandelion seeds for a dollar each, as fast as you can grow them, and you have hoards of customers lined up waving cash at you, wanting to buy more– you don’t cut production. You make dandelion seeds as fast as you can and sell them for as much as you can until:

  • The buyers stop buying them, Or
  • A competitor forces you to lower your price. In which case you lower your price but continue to make a profit.
CEO’s don’t get paid to lose money. They get paid to make a profit for the shareholders.


greedy businessman and greedy customers
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
It’s one thing to be frustrated about the lack of a product or the high price of a product, but it is something entirely different to assign blame based on your frustration.

I’m as frustrated as anyone about the high cost of primers. However, I don’t blame entrepreneurs.

The ONLY person I can control is me. I can decide to buy something or to NOT buy something.

The seller is free to ask whatever he wants for his product, that’s not greed. I can decide to NOT buy it if I don’t like the price. Complaining about the high price and labeling the activity as greedy has no bearing on the situation.

About 20 years ago, I was in a convenience store late at night. A customer comes in, takes a quart of oil off the shelf and brings it to the clerk. The clerk said that will be $11.00. The customer complained about the price and pointed out that he could buy it for $1.50 the following morning at just about any other store. The clerk, who had no say in the price of the merchandise, retorted, “We’re convenient, not competitive”.

The customer wasn’t happy, but he had a choice. He could buy it at $11.00 or not buy it. I understood his frustration, but I didn’t think the owner of the store was being greedy. If he can sell oil for about 7 times what it costs elsewhere, then that’s what he sells it for. I’m not buying it at that price.

If your selling seats on a lifeboat next to the sinking Titanic – that’s greedy.

If you’re asking a high price for something people WANT but don’t NEED, that’s on the customer.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I think you're both spot-on.

The disconnect is partly lexical from the way I am reading either perspective. I'm not trying to play ref, here, but reading all others' posts, I'm obviously getting a different perspective than any others reading (or writing) the same posts. If I may offer how I am seeing a connection between the apparent disagreements, I may have a lead on where they actually fuse together.

Definition of greed: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (such as money) than is needed.​

(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)

Yeah, this is somewhat subjective, given the use of "needed," but defining perceptions of behavior in a social context does not invalidate the more mechanical, or objective aspects at all. Greed is there alright, and no, it does not contradict anything more objective anyone else has said.

P&P has presented a very objective set of assertions, backed by a lot of real, empirical and historical information.

These assertions are validated by many "experts" and textbooks and are commonly held to be "for real." All of this detail is valuable to all of us, even if we are already aware of the theories, law, principles, etc. of economics, as it reminds us to apply reason before acting. It provides some moral support, as we ride this out - subdues panic and angst to a degree.

Todd sums it all up rather succinctly as "greedy businessman and greedy customers."

Now, Todd has omitted a lot of detail there, like a lot of us curmudgeonly old coots will do, especially when frustrated and losing the patience to explain it all to 1) people who don't care; 2) people who won't "get it:" or 3) people who already understand. Having omitted the detail does not imply that the detail is not there, nor that the detail is not valid.

GREED, I think, IS a part of this. I believe it defines what drives the people driving the market. It IS an INTEGRAL part of the market. Think prohibition and the ensuing boot-leg market, or Soviet-era black markets. Someone wanting or needing something is the impetus for providing that something. If one breaks even in the process of providing that something, it's not worth providing. The definition of "greed" has a catch-22 in the word "needed," because NO free market will spawn or thrive based on stopping at the level of "need." Breaking even is senseless. Ther has to be something in it for someone to do the providing and the wider the margin, the more motivated the provider is to provide. It's all about GREED. If it weren't for greed, the system wouldn't work. We'd be waiting in lines for beer, bread and primers and we'd get just what the "State" would give.

Yes, greed IS a social or moral concept, which seems to defy the purely objective aspects of the situation, but there's no reason what is happening objectively cannot fit the social or moral description as long as it meets the criteria, and I think it does,...

BUT, the social definition of what is going on does NOT invalidate the objective aspects - doesn't even put a dent in them. They go hand in hand - one defining the situation objectively and the other defining the situation more emotionally.

Oh, yeah, and I'm not immune either. I am royally PO'd about the situation and do not think terribly well of those "artificially" jacking prices, but then I expect it too. No one is in any business for the sake of the "greater good" or to "serve humanity," it's all for profit, and mo' is better and that is greed.

These are not two opposing concepts - they are the same thing, just seen from different perspectives. There are guys at the shows I will nod at, but not engage in conversation. Those are guys I KNOW bought 22 LR at WM for $20/550, specifically with the intent to resell it at a profit (without an FFL) at the shows and they mark it up 500%. Scourge of the earth to me. Greedy, fatherless son to me. I despise those guys. Aside from not having an FFL to "do business," but that doesn't mean that he's not a functional part of a free market, subject to the predictable casuses and effects. It doesn't make him a "bad businessman." I have something of a grasp on most of the concepts discussed, but yeah, I still call THAT guy "greedy." The way I personally describe his behavior in a social context does not negate the laws, theories or principles commonly accepted regarding the economy or free markets.

It goes hand in hand - I think.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Not the first time I've written this--here or elsewhere.

These component shortages are not new developments. They have been cyclic events for well over 20 years, often in response to or in anticipation of some .gov tomfoolery involving criminal justice or economics. I think it's obvious that the component suppliers could do a better job of serving their market, or these supply issues would not be so frequent or so lengthy. As always, market demands rule the earth--and a lot of hobby markets don't align well with the shallow inventory models used by a lot of suppliers.

Factoid--reloaders and casters are NOT a market niche that corporate interests pay a lot of attention to. We are last in line--behind military, police, and other .gov consumers. Then come the sport shooters and hunters, a few of which are reloaders--most use factory ammo, though--and that is a total rip-off. More shooters are getting into the game, and more of those shooters are starting to reload.

We are the midst of a Perfect Storm, supply-wise. The wind won't stop until end users start slapping suppliers around. STOP paying exorbitant prices for components.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
It is my understanding, without trying to be political, that the current administration is actively throwing roadblocks in the way of US shooters also. The order has gone out to shut down civilian sales out of Lake City Armory. There's also the Russian ammo ban, allegedly in repsonse to the Ukraine invaision, but lets be honest- it's not. We are being driven into a corner, on purpose, by circumstances beyond our control. I don't consider it greed for me to want to be able to buy 5K primers at a decent price. Others may disagree.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
These component shortages are not new developments. They have been cyclic events for well over 20 years, ......
I totally agree but I would set that time frame at 30 years.

Factoid--reloaders and casters are NOT a market niche that corporate interests pay a lot of attention to. We are last in line--behind military, police, and other .gov consumers. Then come the sport shooters and hunters, a few of which are reloaders--most use factory ammo, though--and that is a total rip-off.
Also agree. Reloaders are last in line. We may not like that fact but that doesn't change the facts.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
It is my understanding, without trying to be political, that the current administration is actively throwing roadblocks in the way of US shooters also. The order has gone out to shut down civilian sales out of Lake City Armory. There's also the Russian ammo ban, allegedly in repsonse to the Ukraine invaision, but lets be honest- it's not. We are being driven into a corner, on purpose, by circumstances beyond our control. I don't consider it greed for me to want to be able to buy 5K primers at a decent price. Others may disagree.
While there were some early stories about Lake City, it seems there have been newer developments.

I'll avoid getting into politics
 
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