Why not .270Win?
- Thread starter KeithB
- Start date
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
<----- Oddball freak, in good standing.
I have handled and fired exactly one (1) 270 Winchester rifle, 10 shots to get the scope on paper for its buyer, c. 1983. I grew up among 30/30 and 30-06 die-hards, and got a bunch of guff from Dad and others when my first 30 caliber centerfire rifle was a 308 Winchester. To have brought home a 270 would have gotten me disowned, I am sure of it.
The fact is......the 270 never much "moved" me. As a kid, I read and respected Jack O'Connor's writings on hunting, and his preference for the 270. Meh. Same deal with Warren Page and the 243--nice, but I have 22 LRs for rats and such. Admittedly, I was not yet deeply educated in ballistics and centerfire rifles--I was MUCH MORE a shotgunner in my teens and into my early 20s. I borrowed a 30/30 or a 30-06 to deer-hunt with, and there were many of them available for me.
Rifles took on new meaning when I went to work at the Sheriff's Department in late 1977. I reported to Indio Jail in March 1978, just before station qualifications for the half-year were held. Late March and late October, trying to dodge the summer heat. I had a brand-new Colt Trooper Mk III x 4" to get on paper with, and I was in hog heaven--THEY BUY THE AMMO TO SHOOT WITH.
I ran through the PPC course we used in those ancient times with the Colt pretty easily, with a mid-90-percent score. I didn't think much of it, but the range rats gave me some hard looks. Revolvering all done, on we came to the shotgun portion of the program. A nicely-weathered Rem 870, 18" barrel with cylinder choke. W-W AA trap loads vs. 16 yard targets. Duck Soup, for me--I smoked all ten of my birds.
The lead range guy asks me--"OK kid--who are you, and where are you from?" I said my name, that I reported to Indio Jail last week, and grew up in San Bernardino. I had the distinct impression that I had done something very wrong, but had no idea what that might be.
He smiled, and asked "Where did you learn to shoot like that?"
"Uh, like what?" It was nice that he smiled, but I still didn't get what he meant.
"Those clay birds! 10 out of 10, and half of them barely got airborne!"
"Oh, OK. At Inland Fish & Game Association, in Highland." Still not getting it.
"This kid gets to be point man in Tank 2!" someone said. Laughter ensued, with some "Nice shooting!" comments added on. This felt good, these guys were veteranos, and Tank 2 housed the real one-per-center hairballs.
"OK, it's rifle time--who wants to qual?"
Well, of course I did. Pre-64 Winchesters, later found to be from the 1930s. 3 of them were laying on a picnic table. "Can I do a sight check?"
"Sure. We need to shoot off this ammo, it's 3-4 years old."
Range was 50 yards. More Duck Soup. 150 grain Power Points, which I knew from 10 years of deer hunting and 3 grassed bucks. Rear sight set in 3rd notch up the ladder.......3 hits centered in the black of a 3" bull, standing offhand.
"Ah, jeez--shoot two more, and call it good!" I did. I was rifle-qualed. Group was about 2", and centered. The "standard" was 4 out of 5 in the black, any position. Most of the guys used sitting or prone.
Long story shortened--cops often can't shoot worth %$#@, hunters often can--and do. This was my first real taste of that tendency.
October quals come around, and a new program gets intro'ed for rifles to be carried in patrol cars--you buy your own, scope it if you want to, in 223, 308, or 30-06 calibers. Bolt, gas gun, single-shot, whatever. I did it right--Rem 700 Varmint in 308, Leup 3.5-10 in Leup mounts, Federal Gold Match ammo (168 Matchkings). 3 shots at 100 yards onto a 3" black bull, a miss is a DQ and re-shoot. Even more Duck Soup--I sighted for 200 yards/field zero, placed the crosshairs at the bottom of the black disc and ran off my three shots inside 10 seconds. 3/4" group, just another day at the range, where I spent a whole lot of my time the first couple years of my career. There are 3 things you could do in that part of the world--drink, play golf, or shoot. I shot. A lot. A lot of my present reloading gear was bought at the Yellow Mart near the station during this time period.
A long-winded way of saying I LIKE 30 CALIBER RIFLES. And why.
I have handled and fired exactly one (1) 270 Winchester rifle, 10 shots to get the scope on paper for its buyer, c. 1983. I grew up among 30/30 and 30-06 die-hards, and got a bunch of guff from Dad and others when my first 30 caliber centerfire rifle was a 308 Winchester. To have brought home a 270 would have gotten me disowned, I am sure of it.
The fact is......the 270 never much "moved" me. As a kid, I read and respected Jack O'Connor's writings on hunting, and his preference for the 270. Meh. Same deal with Warren Page and the 243--nice, but I have 22 LRs for rats and such. Admittedly, I was not yet deeply educated in ballistics and centerfire rifles--I was MUCH MORE a shotgunner in my teens and into my early 20s. I borrowed a 30/30 or a 30-06 to deer-hunt with, and there were many of them available for me.
Rifles took on new meaning when I went to work at the Sheriff's Department in late 1977. I reported to Indio Jail in March 1978, just before station qualifications for the half-year were held. Late March and late October, trying to dodge the summer heat. I had a brand-new Colt Trooper Mk III x 4" to get on paper with, and I was in hog heaven--THEY BUY THE AMMO TO SHOOT WITH.
I ran through the PPC course we used in those ancient times with the Colt pretty easily, with a mid-90-percent score. I didn't think much of it, but the range rats gave me some hard looks. Revolvering all done, on we came to the shotgun portion of the program. A nicely-weathered Rem 870, 18" barrel with cylinder choke. W-W AA trap loads vs. 16 yard targets. Duck Soup, for me--I smoked all ten of my birds.
The lead range guy asks me--"OK kid--who are you, and where are you from?" I said my name, that I reported to Indio Jail last week, and grew up in San Bernardino. I had the distinct impression that I had done something very wrong, but had no idea what that might be.
He smiled, and asked "Where did you learn to shoot like that?"
"Uh, like what?" It was nice that he smiled, but I still didn't get what he meant.
"Those clay birds! 10 out of 10, and half of them barely got airborne!"
"Oh, OK. At Inland Fish & Game Association, in Highland." Still not getting it.
"This kid gets to be point man in Tank 2!" someone said. Laughter ensued, with some "Nice shooting!" comments added on. This felt good, these guys were veteranos, and Tank 2 housed the real one-per-center hairballs.
"OK, it's rifle time--who wants to qual?"
Well, of course I did. Pre-64 Winchesters, later found to be from the 1930s. 3 of them were laying on a picnic table. "Can I do a sight check?"
"Sure. We need to shoot off this ammo, it's 3-4 years old."
Range was 50 yards. More Duck Soup. 150 grain Power Points, which I knew from 10 years of deer hunting and 3 grassed bucks. Rear sight set in 3rd notch up the ladder.......3 hits centered in the black of a 3" bull, standing offhand.
"Ah, jeez--shoot two more, and call it good!" I did. I was rifle-qualed. Group was about 2", and centered. The "standard" was 4 out of 5 in the black, any position. Most of the guys used sitting or prone.
Long story shortened--cops often can't shoot worth %$#@, hunters often can--and do. This was my first real taste of that tendency.
October quals come around, and a new program gets intro'ed for rifles to be carried in patrol cars--you buy your own, scope it if you want to, in 223, 308, or 30-06 calibers. Bolt, gas gun, single-shot, whatever. I did it right--Rem 700 Varmint in 308, Leup 3.5-10 in Leup mounts, Federal Gold Match ammo (168 Matchkings). 3 shots at 100 yards onto a 3" black bull, a miss is a DQ and re-shoot. Even more Duck Soup--I sighted for 200 yards/field zero, placed the crosshairs at the bottom of the black disc and ran off my three shots inside 10 seconds. 3/4" group, just another day at the range, where I spent a whole lot of my time the first couple years of my career. There are 3 things you could do in that part of the world--drink, play golf, or shoot. I shot. A lot. A lot of my present reloading gear was bought at the Yellow Mart near the station during this time period.
A long-winded way of saying I LIKE 30 CALIBER RIFLES. And why.
RBHarter
West Central AR
RC
A word of caution . There are 2 RCBS 27-130s . The FN is/was limited production , my example was 141 gr ready to load . It shot well enough but it was paper patched in a 7×6.8 . I did shoot a few in a 6.8 also . . Cramer B1-3 are 27s of 120-125-130 gr , B4 is a 130 gr 7mm .
There is an old Squibb design pointed 130 gr the Lyman number of which escapes me at the moment , 280??? , helpful right . It has a very long GC shank and a short drive length . Mostly 7mm don't size well for the 27s .
I have the 279-124 NOE . It's 130 gr ready to load and is reported accurate in several 6.8s in 10-11" twists driven 2050 in 14-16" barrels and up to 2300 in an 1-11" twist , 20" rifle gas , ARP 5R . I would imagine that if a 270 is even close to right it would be fairly easy to get those kinds of speeds at a lot less that the 43-48kpsi in the 6.8 .
I think I have four 277-280 moulds we might come to a lend/lease arrangement .
A word of caution . There are 2 RCBS 27-130s . The FN is/was limited production , my example was 141 gr ready to load . It shot well enough but it was paper patched in a 7×6.8 . I did shoot a few in a 6.8 also . . Cramer B1-3 are 27s of 120-125-130 gr , B4 is a 130 gr 7mm .
There is an old Squibb design pointed 130 gr the Lyman number of which escapes me at the moment , 280??? , helpful right . It has a very long GC shank and a short drive length . Mostly 7mm don't size well for the 27s .
I have the 279-124 NOE . It's 130 gr ready to load and is reported accurate in several 6.8s in 10-11" twists driven 2050 in 14-16" barrels and up to 2300 in an 1-11" twist , 20" rifle gas , ARP 5R . I would imagine that if a 270 is even close to right it would be fairly easy to get those kinds of speeds at a lot less that the 43-48kpsi in the 6.8 .
I think I have four 277-280 moulds we might come to a lend/lease arrangement .
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Warren Page. Never cared for his writing or tone. There wasn't anything the 243 could do that a 250-3000/250 Savage couldn't do if loaded right in a bolt gun. Now the 25-06, that was a horse of different color. Either way, the object was to sell guns and drive debate, to stir up the masses, so to speak.
Al's story shows you how different agencies look at things. The NYSP had rifles back into the 50's- 94 Winchesters and '17 Enfields, with a couple of Thompsons no one was ever allowed to touch. With the big change in '53-'54, the Colt New Service 45's and Winchesters (along with the riding breeches and spurs) were tossed and a Colt 38 and an Ithaca 37 12ga was what you got. In the 60's they decided we needed "snipers". They shot M70 Winchesters with a 4x scope in 270, allegedly because that was what the guy in charge thought was a hot rig. You had to know people and be their buddy to get a 270. In 90's they finally went to a 308 on Remington target platform. Just as I was getting out they started issuing "patrol rifles" (AR's) to people who knew people and were their buddies. Sound familiar? Old crusty guys like me were never considered for a rifle. You had to look like you stepped out of a Galls catalog and spent your off hours in Ninja training to get a rifle. I believe the sole reason we even got the rifles was because of a massive manhunt we had for a cop killer down on the NY/Pa line. The brass was out touring the roadblocks and even they could see 6 out of 10 Troopers had rifles on their hip or slung. Not a single rifle was Division issued. I'm sure the liability factor was out of the this world, but the BG had been sniping Troopers at a distance, and the guys figured out a Glock and 12 ga wasn't exactly a fair fight against a rifle at 200 yards. Didn't hurt that every news story showed Troops with AR's, deer rifles, surplus military stuff, etc. I carried my old SMLE since I figured if I got in trouble I was going to lose the rifle, and I could replace the SMLE.
Al's story shows you how different agencies look at things. The NYSP had rifles back into the 50's- 94 Winchesters and '17 Enfields, with a couple of Thompsons no one was ever allowed to touch. With the big change in '53-'54, the Colt New Service 45's and Winchesters (along with the riding breeches and spurs) were tossed and a Colt 38 and an Ithaca 37 12ga was what you got. In the 60's they decided we needed "snipers". They shot M70 Winchesters with a 4x scope in 270, allegedly because that was what the guy in charge thought was a hot rig. You had to know people and be their buddy to get a 270. In 90's they finally went to a 308 on Remington target platform. Just as I was getting out they started issuing "patrol rifles" (AR's) to people who knew people and were their buddies. Sound familiar? Old crusty guys like me were never considered for a rifle. You had to look like you stepped out of a Galls catalog and spent your off hours in Ninja training to get a rifle. I believe the sole reason we even got the rifles was because of a massive manhunt we had for a cop killer down on the NY/Pa line. The brass was out touring the roadblocks and even they could see 6 out of 10 Troopers had rifles on their hip or slung. Not a single rifle was Division issued. I'm sure the liability factor was out of the this world, but the BG had been sniping Troopers at a distance, and the guys figured out a Glock and 12 ga wasn't exactly a fair fight against a rifle at 200 yards. Didn't hurt that every news story showed Troops with AR's, deer rifles, surplus military stuff, etc. I carried my old SMLE since I figured if I got in trouble I was going to lose the rifle, and I could replace the SMLE.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Bret, Isn't it always the same in group interactions? Style, and who looks the best on camera, and who you know, received the latest toys.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
My shop was not nearly as cliqueish as Bret's appears to be. I was a total FNG on the day I described, and doing well with the war toys earned me the right to cart one around. That same sentiment prevailed in 1987 when we shifted to autopistols, and when AR-15s were authorized & issued in 1999.
The Win 94s were good rifles for cop work. The 30/30 WCF is superior to the much-ballyhooed 7.62 x 39 made famous by Mikhail Kalashnikov, though mag capacity and rate-of-fire is a bit lacking. The cartridge is a daisy, all the same. The Win 94s got relegated to second-line status after my shop's watershed event in May 1980, the Norco Bank Robbery/Shootout. 2700 rounds fired at us by the bad guys, 33 police cars and one helicopter disabled by gunfire, 1 of our deputies killed and several wounded. By the end of the year, we had Ruger Mini-14s in the trunks of our cars and SWAT teams trained Department-wide. Quite a wake-up call.
The Win 94s were good rifles for cop work. The 30/30 WCF is superior to the much-ballyhooed 7.62 x 39 made famous by Mikhail Kalashnikov, though mag capacity and rate-of-fire is a bit lacking. The cartridge is a daisy, all the same. The Win 94s got relegated to second-line status after my shop's watershed event in May 1980, the Norco Bank Robbery/Shootout. 2700 rounds fired at us by the bad guys, 33 police cars and one helicopter disabled by gunfire, 1 of our deputies killed and several wounded. By the end of the year, we had Ruger Mini-14s in the trunks of our cars and SWAT teams trained Department-wide. Quite a wake-up call.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
"Cliqueish", a nice way of putting it. Another way would be to observe many of the people getting the neat toys also tended to have knee pads sewn into their uniform trousers and no gag reflex...if you take my drift. That or they were attractive and female. I won't even get into that area! Suffice it to say I always did have a real strong gag reflex and got no neat toys.
Rcmaveric
Active Member
I am always on the look out on ebay for older molds in the 280 size. I think i read some where that there was once a .280 bullet mold for the 270 that was 150g that has a decent meplate.
Yeah I dont like borrowing things. I dont want the responsibility in case something bad happens.
Who ever i imagine there has to be more than a few people that have 6.8mm guns that desire a hunting bullet in the 140 to 150g.
Yeah I dont like borrowing things. I dont want the responsibility in case something bad happens.
Who ever i imagine there has to be more than a few people that have 6.8mm guns that desire a hunting bullet in the 140 to 150g.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
So it seems as if the issues are lack of choice in bullets and perhaps too much case capacity for efficient cast bullet shooting. Hmmm. I don't have time right now to do a lot of shooting and experimenting, but I will have in the future. Plan to set up small part of new shop for casting. I suppose I could always make my own mold or screw a .358 tube on it and make my M70 into a 35 Whelen or worst case sell/trade it off for something else.
I appreciate all the comments.
I appreciate all the comments.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I'd say it's more a lack of not only bullet molds, but the willingness of anyone to really make a good one.
and the availability of gas checks.
not just gas checks to slap on the end of the bullet but good high quality consistent ones.
the same goes for the other small calibers.
when is the last time you seen a box of Hornady or RCBS 6.5-27 or 24 cal gas checks?
and the availability of gas checks.
not just gas checks to slap on the end of the bullet but good high quality consistent ones.
the same goes for the other small calibers.
when is the last time you seen a box of Hornady or RCBS 6.5-27 or 24 cal gas checks?
Rcmaveric
Active Member
I have never had a problem buying checks. I haven't had to look in a year though. I broke down and had a friend make me gas check makes for all of my calibers.
I have been dreaming about a Boyd's thumb hole stock and new bullet mold for my .270...
I have experimented alot with different powders. Pluss paper patch and PC and grease with the Lee bullet. It works great from 1200 fps to 2050 fps. Greased lubed or PC'ed. I cant get over 2050 fps and hold accuracy. I have various hypothesis why and half the fun is figuring at which hypotheses is true (twist rate, alloy, pressures, bullet allignment during ignition). But 2050 fps is a respectable velocity and only about 750 fps slower than my jacketed loads.
I have been dreaming about a Boyd's thumb hole stock and new bullet mold for my .270...
I have experimented alot with different powders. Pluss paper patch and PC and grease with the Lee bullet. It works great from 1200 fps to 2050 fps. Greased lubed or PC'ed. I cant get over 2050 fps and hold accuracy. I have various hypothesis why and half the fun is figuring at which hypotheses is true (twist rate, alloy, pressures, bullet allignment during ignition). But 2050 fps is a respectable velocity and only about 750 fps slower than my jacketed loads.
Ian
Notorious member
I took the Midsouth Lee "cruise missile" and decked a full driving band off the length, two wraps of 100% cotton Vellum and a twist, up to the body/shoulder junction (after tapping) with Superformance, buffer sifted halfway up the neck, seat to engrave the patch about as firmly as possible, result was 2700 fps and moa or a little less. The whole experiment was to see if a cast bullet could be slung at nearly 200K rpm and hold groups (Certain people on the internetz were adamant that they could not be) and to see if the CM could be made to stabilize. Yes to both, but the CM as Lee cut it for production is fundamentally unstable without being cut down to 150 grains.