40 S&W
- Thread starter Petrol & Powder
- Start date
I did!
I did specifically because it was all the rage, the ONE, the BEST-EVER, superior to the nine and the 45...
Not because I believed all that, but forty pistols were available in a wider range of pistols and brass was cheaper than driveway gravel. All the LE organizations were shooting it and it was effectively FREE.
EDIT: In response to @Winelover 's last post, my forty brass came from LE ranges, where an LE contact had dibs on the brass. No one else wanted it and they were happy to have him police the brass, because it got DEEP. We had barrels of the stuff for a while.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
The Virginia State Police have used the .357 SIG cartridge for more than 25 years. I have contacts with that agency, including former firearm instructors and YES, the 357 SIG is an expensive cartridge. It's expensive even when you buy it by the truckload from large distributors off of state negotiated contracts (which the VSP does). But in the overall scheme, the training costs less than successful lawsuits and settlements. So, they spend the money on the training ammo. The duty ammo costs considerably more than the FMJ training ammo, but they expend far less of that.
If the bean-counters get their way, I could envision a switch to the 9mm for cost savings but that will only happen in conjunction with a corresponding change in pistols (which is also costly). The current SIG P320 pistols used by the VSP are only about 6 years old, so it’s unlikely there will be any change soon.
Man,,aint i glad i shoot on my own range.
I would stroke out,leaving my brass on the ground.
Im so cheap that i load my brass until primer pocket is loose,easily 13-15 loadings.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
You and I both... At least three 5 gal pails plus 5-6 mor full pails of mixed 9/40/45/223 from police range.
CW
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I think the 40 S&W is declining in popularity because it’s just not THAT much better than the alternatives. The 9mm Luger (9 x 19) is a capable cartridge when loaded properly. (good bullet, pushed fast enough) The 40 S&W bandwagon was driven in the early days by a combination of FBI hype and misinformation about the 9mm. The advantages of the 9mm eventually chipped away at the reputation of the 40 S&W and the 9mm regained some lost ground in the market. In the real world, the terminal performance differences between the 9mm and 40 S&W just aren’t that great. In fact, real world differences may be indistinguishable. (I know, blasphemy)
People like to explain the attraction of the 9mm over the 40 S&W to use by small statured people, female users, recoil shy users, “non gun people” and other remarks that imply users of the 9mm are somehow inferior men. I reject those arguments. I have trained females and have shot with females that are entirely capable of utilizing large caliber handguns and use them well. Likewise, I have seen big men that just cannot shoot. I think agencies now see the 9mm and 40 S&W as tactically equal in the real world. The cost and weight savings of the 9mm coupled with a higher magazine capacity, tilt the scales slightly in favor of the 9mm; not the need to equip “small statured” individuals.
As increasing numbers of agencies abandoned the 40 S&W, the civilian market took notice. 34 years’ worth of data associated with the 40 S&W has impacted its reputation. That reputation is now based a bit more on actual performance and a bit less on the hype that once surrounded it. It’s not a bad cartridge but it’s not the super-performer it was once claimed to be.
People like to explain the attraction of the 9mm over the 40 S&W to use by small statured people, female users, recoil shy users, “non gun people” and other remarks that imply users of the 9mm are somehow inferior men. I reject those arguments. I have trained females and have shot with females that are entirely capable of utilizing large caliber handguns and use them well. Likewise, I have seen big men that just cannot shoot. I think agencies now see the 9mm and 40 S&W as tactically equal in the real world. The cost and weight savings of the 9mm coupled with a higher magazine capacity, tilt the scales slightly in favor of the 9mm; not the need to equip “small statured” individuals.
As increasing numbers of agencies abandoned the 40 S&W, the civilian market took notice. 34 years’ worth of data associated with the 40 S&W has impacted its reputation. That reputation is now based a bit more on actual performance and a bit less on the hype that once surrounded it. It’s not a bad cartridge but it’s not the super-performer it was once claimed to be.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
I like all 3 of the calibers getting discussed here--9 x 19, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I have no real experience with the 357 SIG, so can't comment intelligently about it--but it paper/potential ballistics are impressive. It and the 10mm Auto are outliers, sort of. I do like the 10mm a whole lot.
FBI's recommendation of the weak-sistered SMG-intended 147 grain JHP load at 950 FPS had a whole lot to do with the development of the 40 S&W. Folks who actually got shot at for a living KNEW the Sub-sonic round sucked canal water, but American law enforcement shot-callers think that FBI is like God--Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Rather than pound uselessly against the 'Up & Locked' FBI mindset, a new and different cartridge was developed. My shop adopted the 40 S&W at the same time it adopted the Subsonic 9mm round, and deputies went to the 40 S&W overnight. No surprise, that.
30 years later, the 9mm is resurgent as more agencies and private citizens begin carrying European-level 9mm loadings in place of the watered-down USA loads and the FBI lab-coat pretenders. Euro 9mm is FOR REAL. The 40 S&W isn't 'Dying', but its tsunami has passed.
Most FBI recommendations sound their best when unchallenged. But as Samuel Clemens said--"Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand."
FBI's recommendation of the weak-sistered SMG-intended 147 grain JHP load at 950 FPS had a whole lot to do with the development of the 40 S&W. Folks who actually got shot at for a living KNEW the Sub-sonic round sucked canal water, but American law enforcement shot-callers think that FBI is like God--Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Rather than pound uselessly against the 'Up & Locked' FBI mindset, a new and different cartridge was developed. My shop adopted the 40 S&W at the same time it adopted the Subsonic 9mm round, and deputies went to the 40 S&W overnight. No surprise, that.
30 years later, the 9mm is resurgent as more agencies and private citizens begin carrying European-level 9mm loadings in place of the watered-down USA loads and the FBI lab-coat pretenders. Euro 9mm is FOR REAL. The 40 S&W isn't 'Dying', but its tsunami has passed.
Most FBI recommendations sound their best when unchallenged. But as Samuel Clemens said--"Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand."
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Agree completely.
If I recall correctly, and Al, please correct me if I'm wrong, the 147 Grain subsonic 9mm was the interim solution proposed by the FBI before the 40 S&W was released.
The 147 gr 9mm probably did more to damage the reputation of the 9mm more than anything else.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Something I always found enjoyable was every single 9mm guy seems to feel it is imperative that convince everyone listening the viability of there choice. Siting comparisons to other calibers. Siting modern advances brought better ballistics...
Yet, ya never seem ta read about why this guy likes 40 or that guy who carries a 45...
IMHO its flat popular because the standards have been lowered. Claims todays folks cannot learn to shoot bigger calibers well enough.
WWII saw CHILDREN trying to enlist.
Vietnam saw first people skirting responsibility during a draft.
Today... well dont ask... dont tell.
CW
Yet, ya never seem ta read about why this guy likes 40 or that guy who carries a 45...
IMHO its flat popular because the standards have been lowered. Claims todays folks cannot learn to shoot bigger calibers well enough.
WWII saw CHILDREN trying to enlist.
Vietnam saw first people skirting responsibility during a draft.
Today... well dont ask... dont tell.
CW
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Something I always found enjoyable was every single 9mm guy seems to feel it is imperative that [to] convince everyone listening [of] the viability of there [their] choice. Siting [Citing] comparisons to other calibers. Siting [Citing] modern advances brought [by] better ballistics...
Yet, ya [they?] never seem ta[to?] read about why this guy likes [the] 40 or that guy who carries a 45...
IMHO its [it’s] flat popular because the standards have been lowered. Claims todays [today’s] folks cannot learn to shoot bigger calibers well enough.
WWII saw CHILDREN trying to enlist.
Vietnam saw first people skirting responsibility during a draft.
Today... well dont [don’t] ask... dont [don’t] tell.
/\ Persuasive argument /\
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I don't know....
Seems like an awful logic and common sense are being attributed to government agencies in rationalizing WHY the nine over the forty.
I disagree with any assertion which attributes any logic OR common sense to the decision in terms of performance. The nine is cheaper, more common throughout the world and (ostensibly) easier to qualify with. PERIOD. ANY assertions by the government that the nine is "as good" or "better" is fabrication for the sake of justifying a cost-cutting measure and making excuses for people who can't qualify at the range.
I seriously doubt any other considerations were taken and that any data were derived for the sake of rationalizing the decision.
Seems like an awful logic and common sense are being attributed to government agencies in rationalizing WHY the nine over the forty.
I disagree with any assertion which attributes any logic OR common sense to the decision in terms of performance. The nine is cheaper, more common throughout the world and (ostensibly) easier to qualify with. PERIOD. ANY assertions by the government that the nine is "as good" or "better" is fabrication for the sake of justifying a cost-cutting measure and making excuses for people who can't qualify at the range.
I seriously doubt any other considerations were taken and that any data were derived for the sake of rationalizing the decision.
RBHarter
West Central AR
My Mom was lethal with 1917 Colts , a dainty 130# 5'7" girl that hunted with Dad until 2016 or so . She carried that M70 06' from 1980 on .
I have 38,357,9mm,40, and most of 45 clan . I would like to have a long slide GI based 1911 45 .
Being a numbers/mechanical kind of guy I like the 40 S&W . The 3" HP9 will only get me about 975fps with a 125gr . I get 900+ fps with 250 in any of 45s in revolvers of 3-1/2-7.5" . I only the XD40 with the 2.25" barrel but it delivers 940 with a 401-175 @ 178 gr .
I can't say for sure about terminal performance but it seems like if you add .05 to the dia and 40%+ to the weight of the bullet that's going to be an improvement on terminal results. Sure the ACP etc 45s have the same advantage even with the 230 gr which I haven't clocked yet but it takes more barrel.
I like the XD 40 and oddly enough the feel is very similar to both of the 4" 1911s I shot it's not snappy especially, but notably faster to cycle . The High Power was for some time made in 40 with unique slide and barrel .
I have 38,357,9mm,40, and most of 45 clan . I would like to have a long slide GI based 1911 45 .
Being a numbers/mechanical kind of guy I like the 40 S&W . The 3" HP9 will only get me about 975fps with a 125gr . I get 900+ fps with 250 in any of 45s in revolvers of 3-1/2-7.5" . I only the XD40 with the 2.25" barrel but it delivers 940 with a 401-175 @ 178 gr .
I can't say for sure about terminal performance but it seems like if you add .05 to the dia and 40%+ to the weight of the bullet that's going to be an improvement on terminal results. Sure the ACP etc 45s have the same advantage even with the 230 gr which I haven't clocked yet but it takes more barrel.
I like the XD 40 and oddly enough the feel is very similar to both of the 4" 1911s I shot it's not snappy especially, but notably faster to cycle . The High Power was for some time made in 40 with unique slide and barrel .
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Sometime when you get the chance, check out some of Lucky Gunners test results. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ Ever since the Feebs decided that a suitable service caliber must penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of "calibrated" organic ballistic gelatin prepared to exacting standards, but not penetrate past 18 inches of said media, the service and self-defense ammunition manufacturers as all turned into jello junkies. There are additional circumstances of course, but all research is directed into those six inches of "acceptable" depth as per the oracle of Fed. So what does that leave us with? Well, bullets that perform thusly, and anything outside of those parameters is unclean. The manufacturers are striving to develop ammo that only penetrates so fat, then stops. Some tests I've seen show six bullets in gel, all stopping at the exact same depth. That sort of results certainly requires a huge amount of R&D work. How well do these loads perform in actual shootings? That's immaterial.
Anyway, I like the 40, and on some of the boards I still visit I'm seeing and actual resurgence in interest in 40. It does neatly bridge the gap between 9mm & 45 ACP, and uses a 9mm footprint pistol to do it. However, I also like 357 SIG, so I'm a sucker for so-called "lost" causes anyway.
Anyway, I like the 40, and on some of the boards I still visit I'm seeing and actual resurgence in interest in 40. It does neatly bridge the gap between 9mm & 45 ACP, and uses a 9mm footprint pistol to do it. However, I also like 357 SIG, so I'm a sucker for so-called "lost" causes anyway.