New Unique Vs New Universal With Data

[quicksylver]

So here it is folks..data comparing the current production of Unique and Universal.

The most obvious differences are in the new Unique bottle graphics and the color of the new Universal..
the new Universal having a nice new purple haze to it..kinda like something you would find on a glazed DD doughnut..

Here's the less dramatic new graphics for the Unique...

Ok..so the first thing I did was too set up my Lyman Ideal 55 powder measure to throw as close to 13.8 grains of the Old Universal as I could get with out going over..

I have found that the best way to set up the powder measure when using these light, flaky powders is to do two things ; 1. Feed the hopper from a funnel set inside it..there by maintaining a constant weight in the hopper...


2. then use the two smaller sliding brass bars to set the desired weight ...

Before starting to throw charges I fill the hopper as described above, I then tap the handle against the stop about 20 times to settle the powder, I then try and be consistent with the manor in which I operate the handle and knocker when throwing charges...it's amazing how you can manipulate the charge weight by changing the way you use the handle...

As I said I like to try and stay a little under the desired weight so I can trickle additional powder in to get spot on to the charge I want..

So here's how they all metered using this method ...these are the thrown weights..

Old Universal (again trying for 13.8 grs)..13.8 -13.8 - 13.8 -13.5 -13.7 - 13.7 - 13.7 -13.7 - 13.6 -13.6

New Universal (same settings) ... 13.7 - 13.6 - 13.9 - 13.9 - 13.9 - 13.9 - 13.9 - 13.6 - 13.9 - 13.7

New Unique (same setting).. 11.0 - 11.1 - 11.1

New Unique (resetting for 13.8 grs).... 13.8 -13.8 - 13.7 -13.9 - 13.9 - 13.7 -13.9 -13.8 -13.9 -
13.9

So on to the shooting and data...I used my 1903 Rock Island 03, it has a pristine High Standard four groove barrel for this test, the rounds were 30-06, FC cases, Neck Sized only, WLRP, I used the NOE version of Lyman's 311332, the alloy was 4-4-92 and the lube was 50/50 , OAL was set at 3.302 to just lightly engrave the rifling..

Prior to shooting each round I held the gun with a loaded round about 60 degrees up or down and tapped on the side of the stock with the heel of my hand 3 times and then placed the rifle on the rest..

But what does it all mean?...you decide.

For me it's all about what Mr. Target says..shoot what you got or can get...

Dan

 

[Brad]

I'm a bit concerned about the cup on your bench.

So, what did the targets say? The velocities and SD stay pretty consistent.

 

[quicksylver]

I am an Ice Tea addict....

The targets said all the bullets hit the berm..I can't shoot for groups when I'm using the chronny..I am too afraid of hitting it..as has been done in the past..

Later in the week I will try these loads for groups..WO the chronny..

Want to here the worst part ?..well you're going to anyways about a third of the way through the shootings the Big Ol' Swat Team bus arrived with my Swat buddies..all 6 of them..
they set up around me and kindly waited till I was done..nice guys..BUT..I didn't have time to wait around for them to finish and get the 3 cases of spent rounds they usually give me..all .308...uggg..

 

[Ian]

I'm confused....did not have time to wait for a bucket of free 1F .308 brass....you SURE that was only iced tea?

When using Aloxagoop, always burn the first one, it will throw your ES off. Also notice the first shot from every group was fast, might be the fouling congealing in the bore a little between strings. I'm really surprised the Unique didn't like being at the back so much, I always got better results elevating the muzzle vs. flat, or tapping the rim of the case gently on the bench before laying it sideways and easing it into battery. I'm also a little surprised at the Universal, never tested the new stuff for position sensitivity but the green version always gave me fits compared to Unique when used in big cases, and never did group as well as Unique.

 

[quicksylver]

The velocities and SD stay pretty consistent.[/QUOTE]

From the limited data it appears they do...certainly nothing drastic..

Looks to me that if you're a fan of one or the other you'll probably will stick with it..but I wouldn't pass up either if they were on the shelf..

This test doesn't indicate which is cleaner burning or has an accuracy advantage..as for accuracy sometimes I think we use what we are more comfortable with and consequently get better groups.. just MO..

 

[quicksylver]

Just checked the burn rate chart...Interesting it has Unique listed just before Universal in other words just slightly faster than Universal, yet the data indicates Universal had a higher average velocity...by quite a bit considering the size of the case and amount of powder..

 

[quicksylver]

Ian...I did have 5 rounds of the old Universal I shot first and chronnied ...but realized I had inadvertently set the chronny to the metric setting when I saw the reading ..I just erased it ..too lazy to covert it...

BTW...AL CHECKS WERE USED ON THESE BULLETS ...SO CU CHECKS WOULD BE GIVING A SLIGHTLY LOWER READING..

 

[quicksylver]

OK ..so I am definitely a Brass Junkie...I went and got myself another Ice Tea then kept going to the range.. there was the brass..all picked up and in plastic bags... all Hornady ..!!!!

 

[Ian]

A little calculated info, didn't have all the nitty-gritty details so I used some defaults. Close-nuff

Look at these calculated pressure traces where I set the cursor to the peak pressure point to fill in the numbers in the boxes showing chamber pressure, bullet movement amount in inches, and bullet instantaneous velocity (gotta put the cursor somewhere, might as well be there).



Now compare the same data with Unique powder:



Not a lot of difference, but very critical amounts at the top of the pressure and burn curves. Universal is definitely a little more "smooth" in pressure peak and drop off.

 

[Ian]

QL predicted the Unique would make about 25 fps more than Universal, when in fact the opposite is true. I would certainly have predicted the same, grain for grain, comparing the two powders five or more years ago, due to the stretched out burn curve of Unique compared to the rather short/clean burn curve of Universal....from actual shooting, not from computer models. I wonder what's different here?

 

[quicksylver]

We may know when I retry the old Universal....

Those were my expectations as well..but again we have two new powders here...

Next couple of days I'll be prepping some 44 mag and 45 Colt Cases, maybe even some 357..I don't think we're going to see much difference between the two in the auto cases ..9mm, 45 ACP...could be wrong

 

[creosote]

I didn't expect the results so soon. Thanks for posting it. I'm even more interested in the pistol data. What kind of brass will you get on the pistol range?

 

[Ian]

You'll see a big difference, actually: The Universal will have more poop grain for grain, and burn LOTS cleaner.

A note about Universal and the .45 Colt, which is one of my favorite powders for that with 250-270-grain bullets by the way, at standard pressure: Load data we encounter seems quite warm to me. We saw the article from Handloader discussed recently, and the supposedly wonderful STANDARD pressure loads for the RCBS 270 SWC, and every load I saw in the list made me shake my head. QL was showing over 20K psi for most of them, with SAAMI standard maxing at 14K. I have been using 7.8 grains of Universal per Lyman 49th under 250 grain (actual) bullets seated fairly long, like almost to the end of the cylinder, for a lot of years and they always seemed pretty warm to me...then I get QL and run some numbers and 14K is surpassed around 6.7 grains or so with my components according to predictions. A chronograph verified that even with the cylinder gap losses the QL prediction was pretty much on the money in grains powder/velocity. It didn't seem to hurt anything, and without a way to directly measure pressure, who really knows. QL is a program with a lot of limitations, not the least of which is the database value compared to that of the particular lot of powder one is actually using.

Take it all for what it's worth, just some data points.

 

[quicksylver]

Uh...maybe some 9mm..AGAIN.!!

 

[Ian]

Somebody needs to acquire a transferable Sten gun.....

 

[quicksylver]

7.5 grs of Unique under the 454190 had been my standard for years..it produced one hole 5 shot groups out of my OM Ruger BH with a 7.5" barrel on the indoor 50 ' range..

Are you saying that's a hot load!

 

[Ian]

Not with Unique, that sounds about right to me. I used nine grains under that same exact bullet, loaded to 1.600" for a loooooong time, but that was Hercules stuff and I knew it was hot so never shot it in SAAs because I didn't own any.

 

[RBHarter]

I would suspect that every SA 45 Colts of the last 20 yr has been tooled for an ACP swap cylinder so there's no problem with the hot 9 gr max listed in most of my books for 250-60 cast and 7.8 for most Jacketed 250-60 . The ACP compatible guns would be rated at 23kpsi and most likely would use just 1 cylinder part . Pre-1995 anybody's guess . Pre -1980 SAA and Clones I wouldn't do it .......well except the BlackHawk and Smiths that could be validated as being run with 44s ....

 

[quicksylver]

STOP RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE -YOU['VE GOT TO CHECK THIS OUT...Here's some more data that may be very important !!

Ian your program may be spot on look at this !!

Using the data published above I interpolated to see what loads would get me to 1450 FPS with the new powders....

I loaded some of each with 12.7 grs of New Universal, 13.2 grs of Unique AND 5 WITH THE OLD UNIVERSAL....

Here are todays results.....very interesting !!!

Seems like yesterdays data was good..and it looks like when using the New Universal one would want to lower the charge by about 5%..

 

[Ian]

5% is less than what you see often with lot-to-lot variance from the same powder made in the same plant. I think a lot (probably most) people tend to either ignore or minimize the reality of production tolerances as well as all the warnings in the loading manuals which implore us to reduce and work up if ANYTHING is altered in the load (powder, brass, primer, and yes, powder lot #). This is a perfect example of why we can only assume our data is good in OUR guns with OUR exact components. This is one reason I buy powder in bulk quantities, I've been bitten too many times by the changes in ball powders (Hodgdon is the worst, throwing whatever is close and cheap that week into a jug marked WW748, BLC-2, H-335, etc.) Not all the mistakes get made into Promo.

I found that grain for grain my batch of Barney powder and the slightly older green Aussi stuff was pretty close, but there was a very significant difference in VOLUME, or "bulk density". The thing to compare between lots of old and new Universal would be how they compare volume-wise, as in throw each kind without changing the measure setting, and see what you get. You didn't indicate what the charge weight was in today's test with the old Universal and 50/50 lube, but I'm assuming it was the same 12.7 as the new, but the old gave more velocity.

My results in the .45 ACP were that I had to go up in disc volume to throw a charge that would generate the same velocity as the old, with the new Universal. No big deal, I'll usually prefer a bulkier powder when I can get it as long as it meters ok, it just required a re-work to about 10% more volume of powder for my pet .45 ACP load.