Subsonic speeds wonderings…

[BBerguson]

I just got my CVA Scout 44 mag off the 4 sale rack yesterday. I was never happy with the accuracy with it but I was getting closer with some gas checked bullets a buddy gave me. I cast up a bunch of the most accurate one with his mold but I never processed them. I need to get to work on them now…

So anyways, I was thinking about velocity and wondering if the velocities I was running was causing me problems. I’m usually loading in the 12-1400 fps range, just fast enough to be supersonic and dropping under on the way to the target. I know this is an issue with 22 rimfire, could it be causing my accuracy disappointments with my cast bullets in rifles?

Thoughts?

 

[Spindrift]

It is theoretically entirely possible. I can't say I've observed large accuracy problems attributable to transsonic transition, but you are probably shooting.44 bullets with low BC in the first place. One might think such bullets could be more susceptible to the velocity- dependent chaotic BC changes in the transsonic window.

I'd give subsonics a try!

 

[RBHarter]

I have not tried my 429421 that casts.448 paper patched in the 45 Colts Rifles . BUT , this is what happened. Plugged into the Strelok calculator a 1240-1280 fps launch of a 452-255 @265,454424 @257 ,452-252@261 ,and the NOE 454-250 clone of the wide square groove 454424 @252gr hit 1080 fps between 75 and 80 yd . Those loads were clocking 1050 in a 7.5" RBH so they were actually in the space between max SAA and Ruger only loads. Probably around 20kpsi . Somewhere and very,very consistently between 78&84yd they bullets with the 1-32" twist were departing line of flight at 10:00 right and 40° up . The result was dead popcans out to 75 yd and 105 yd berm impacts 8' high and 20-24' right .

Now there have been a bunch of very knowledgeable people tell me that I was seeing wasn't aerodynamic destabilizing and bullet tumble. That is however the only mechanical explanation for a 2" 50 yd group that wrecks 12 oz cans at 75 yd to turn into a reverse trajectory line departure with witnesses. Unless of course it was rebounding from a ground strike , which it wasn't. The 421 might fair better with its 300+ yd mule deer killing lore .

My solution is to;
A not shoot past78 yd.
B go faster at the muzzle.
C stay subsonic and go heavier.
D rebarrel to a 1-16 or 1-20" twist .

B , the Mag SN Rossi 92 is probably completely safe up to 454 start loads and most likely everything the Ruger NM BlackHawk will take both the 86'ish and the 2013 examples 23-25kpsi is probably completely safe in them . I tire quickly of shooting 1200 fps MV 250-265 gr loads in the 3# Ruger BlackHawk tank . I did have a load up there ...

C 300s aren't bad and 1050 is easy to get . The 458-340 FN Lee will size .454 and works ok . The custom Mountain Mold 454-350 RNFP yaws , but a 19 gr of H322 will run it right through 1250 in the 16" carbine . It may have been stable but hits were a foot apart at 50 yd and the steel butt made me buy a 45-70 .

D the bid with my 1-16" blank was $1200 blue , fit , chamber , refit wood and bands for a straight profile .750 OD at 20" and notch for a pre-84' penny . It included a safety delete threaded peep post also .

Also the carbines have a .450 groove but freely chamber .454 .

While none of this is for a 44 SPCL/mag the .015 shouldn't make that much difference although I've seen that much completely change twist response.

 

[BBerguson]

Thanks for the awesome reply RB. Very interesting. I suspect chamber size is an issue with a pistol cartridge in a rifle and have improved the groups by seating the bullet out as far as I can. Have also sized to .432 but I really don’t think this is a bullet size issue. With my portable reloading setup that I just got, I can do some really good testing at the range and the spring weather will be perfect for it!

 

[BBerguson]

It is theoretically entirely possible. I can't say I've observed large accuracy problems attributable to transsonic transition, but you are probably shooting.44 bullets with low BC in the first place. One might think such bullets could be more susceptible to the velocity- dependent chaotic BC changes in the transsonic window.

I'd give subsonics a try!

I’m going to! Probably going to stay with the BE-86 as it ignites very well. I need to try some of the lighter bullets too. I have a 200gr mold that had absolutely horrendous accuracy and gave all of them to my buddy who liked them in his Redhawk. I’ll try the 240grs first because I already have them.

 

[Brad]

Would be interested in what Rick has to say. The handgun silhouette crowd shoots some good groups out to 200 with revolvers. I am quite certain that those bullets are subsonic by the time the get to 200 yards.

 

[Rick]

Not so much Brad. My revolver 188 gr bullet starts out at the muzzle at 1550 fps, a decent BC and they would be well over the sound barrier at 200 meters. Enough momentum (bullet weight) to keep the speed above the sound barrier. The lighter the bullet the quicker it sheds speed.

 

[beagle]

I’m out of my area here but no experience with rifles in .45 cal except the .45/70.
However, I do have about $2,000 worth of education on .44 Mag Marlins and their 1:36 slow twist barrels. After owning two Model M1894s, a Model 336 and a Model 1894 tebarreled to a 1:20 twist, I never reached a happy conclusion and gave up.
I had a very similar experience with one of the first M1894s. Using a 429215, I was shooting scoped groups off a bench at 50 yards of an inch. I mean four 5 shot groups. Says I, I got it made and loaded 3 boxes. My son came and we headed to our favorite range for some plinking. On a berm at 70 yards, I couldn’t hit a clay pidgeon or a pop can. 2 foot erratic strikes. Same with the 336 which i still had. Enough! Sent it off and had a rebarrel done with a 1:20 Douglas. My thought were, the SBH handles the 429421 and a 300 grain and my .444 handles the 300 grain so I should be good.
Came back and handled 300s fine. The 429421s okay but not great.
Was winter and Felix Robbin’s and I corresponded back and forth all winter. Swapped bullets, built computer models and theorized. We came to the conclusion that a .44 Mag needed an ideal twist of 1:26 to stabilize both bullets.
Come spring, Winchester brought out its Legacy. More money. When it arrive, I hurried to the range. 429421s in a pile and 300s in a pile about 10” high and to the left at 100 yards. I was a happy camper. This continued for most of the summer. I was satisfied. Didn’t expect both weights to shoot to same point of impact.
Then ugliness raised its head. Started having missfires as did others. Eventually they traced it to a linkage problem with the safety. Winchester didn’t have an immediate fix so I traded off both a .44 Msgnum and a .30/30 Legacy and swore off .44 mag rifles forever.
Comments on the 452423 and 452424.
I have used both in approximately 6 handguns. Both are great out to about 70 yards, The 452424 can be throttled up to make the cut for plinking at 100 yards. The 452490 is a much better mould for long range pistol than either one.
This has been my experiences with a similar situation. Hope it helps.
BTW, the Greenholl formula is no help. It was developed for artillery projectiles and has to be modified for cast.
Before I did anything, I’d try a few jacketed bullets through it.
Bite your tongue, John./beagle

 

[BBerguson]

Beagle, I had a Marlin 1894. Key word being “had”.

I tried some jacketed loads I have for my revolver and they didn’t shoot very well either. I should get a box of bullets and seat them out as far as the cast bullets I’m messing with. Loaded for revolver the bullets are seated pretty deep and I have plenty of room in the CVA Scout To make them longer.

I have some swaging dies and 44 cal 3/4 jackets but I don’t like using them on my reloading presses. I’ve got a neighbor with a Corbin press so I need to text him and see if my dies will work in his press. I could make some pretty heavy/long bullets to try.

 

[beagle]

I do make note that gas checked bullets made a slight difference in stability as well as increasing diameter. Increased diameter seems to be the “cure all” and all is well by prominent gun rag writers. I found that it helped but the problem persisted. In my thoughts, it’s still a problem with the bullet going unstable down range. The only factors you can play with in stability are diameter, velocity, length of bullet and powder burn rate without spending a lot of $$$./beagle

 

[RBHarter]

And what happens to a fat bullet in a skinny barrel ? It gets longer and increases bearing length .......

 

[beagle]

Great observation! Yes it will to a certain extent. I toyed with the idea of using a HP bullet and inserting a brass screw in the cavity to add length.
This has been done in reverse in the .22 Hornet by shortening the plastic tips on Hornady bullets to “shorten” the bullet and give better accuracy. Also a “nail tail” in the .303 Brit to give a longer bullet./beagle

 

[Elpatoloco]

My Marlin gives acceptable groups at 50 yards with RCBS 44-240-SWC slugs. I never tried it any further as I got the gun for my boys to shoot hogs when they were little. I size for all my 44s at .431

Maybe I should dig the old girl out of the safe and shoot her at longer range. The kids blasted God knows how many hogs with it. I was relatively new at casting and that mold is gas checked as I thought it was needed in a rifle. (Wrong)
Lubed with Javalena 50/50. Never leaded an lick in anything I ran it in.

Photo is 25ish years old

I know nothing of subsonic loadings

 

[beagle]

I dallied with subsonic loads a while in various rifle calibers and wrote an article on castors entitled “Whisper Loads”.
Of limited use probably for backyard pests.
I learned several things.

You get no expansion with cast.
They are very accurate out to 50 yards.
No recoil.
Low noise.
More prone to ricochets than regular loads.
Zeroing at subsonic velocities is required.

Bullet deformation was nil. In fact, I recovered, cleaned and relubed and sized several 457122s in the .45/70 and refired them to see if I could. They performed as expected at normal velocities.

I don’t think sub sonic is the answer./beagle

 

[RBHarter]

Enter shape , alloy , and available energy for forming . A 2oz ball peen with a 12" drop may or may not discharge a roll cap let alone injure a finger but a 32oz ........ I'm not sticking a finger in the strike zone on purpose.

I know there's tomes dedicated to the assorted HBWC dum dums but an 1100 fps 530 45 cal .300 meplat TC is going to have a response in dead soft if it hits anything solid at 1500 ft pounds . Large cal musket balls have significant shape change in organ space . I don't think the 22 LR has been credited with pristine post impact bullets either .

I guess I want to express the idea that it's all about some sort of balance that is needed for the terminal performance desired, alloy , shape ,weight , and the target density. I mean there's a world of difference between between a 25-20 75 gr SWC for a 50' squirrel hit in the head and a 200# boar hog hit in the forehead at 50 yd with a 500 gr 45-70 . The squirrel head is going to be a leaking ball of disconnected mush with 2 1/4" holes in it . The hog may not even have have penetration into the brain pan but the bullet is going to be somewhere between a .510 WC and 1/4" thick dollar sized disc and most likely introduce significant cns damage through hemorrhage or spinal damage .

The FBI determined the 9mm 147 gr sub was enough.......and only marginally superior to the 38-158 . ........

Somewhere I read this called "degrees of dead" and "duration of expiration" .
A game warden is going give a guy a long hard look hunting Elk in Nevada with a long barreled 223 or 22-250 both of which make the minimum energy requirements by 25&155 ftlb but never say a word to the guy with the ported 1895GG that is actually marginal to 75ftlb short with RP 350s . Ruin the neck mount the 22s are good to go but the 45-70 will separate the off side shoulder inside 150 yd .

Based on hogs shot with 250&255gr 454524s at 1050 fps from 7ft to 47 yd I'd say that fluid wake wrecks stuff equally well to hydrostatic shock just more gently .

 

[beagle]

Well, I don’t disagree with your thoughts on power. I’ve seen my dad kill many 300 pound hogs at slaughter time with a single .22 Short into the brain.
I thought we were talking stability in the .44 Magum and the extent subsonic velocities affected it.
Simply pointed out my experience with subsonic loads and lessons learned. This was brought on by a request for a quiet loaf for yard pests. I’m sure not going to own a .44 Mag and shoot it subsonic.
I think the original question was did the possibility exist that the trajectory deviation was caused by the subsonic threshold crossing.
The only reason for the 147 grain subsonic load is that’s the optimum weight/velocity combo that would reliably function the suppressed MP5s the SEALs use and still stay subsonic for sound purposes./beagle

 

[RBHarter]

It's hard to go wrong with a .400"+ hole made with 1/2+ oz even if it's "only" going 900 fps .

The stability issues I had with the Colts were twist induced or rather the lack there of , the 1-16" opened up some , but didn't miss the berm .

 

[BBerguson]

Well, I don’t disagree with your thoughts on power. I’ve seen my dad kill many 300 pound hogs at slaughter time with a single .22 Short into the brain.
I thought we were talking stability in the .44 Magum and the extent subsonic velocities affected it.
Simply pointed out my experience with subsonic loads and lessons learned. This was brought on by a request for a quiet loaf for yard pests. I’m sure not going to own a .44 Mag and shoot it subsonic.
I think the original question was did the possibility exist that the trajectory deviation was caused by the subsonic threshold crossing.
The only reason for the 147 grain subsonic load is that’s the optimum weight/velocity combo that would reliably function the suppressed MP5s the SEALs use and still stay subsonic for sound purposes./beagle

Yes, my only interest in this is trying to get the tiniest group possible and this is about the only variable I haven’t played with. I don’t need to do this for anything as I have lots of guns and loads to hunt anything in America. It’s all about making this particular gun shoot MOA groups at 50 yards consistently. I have guns that will do it and I’m struggling to believe that this gun isn’t capable.

 

[fiver]

it probably is, but you missed the clues telling you which direction to take to get there.


all i got is i'm glad i bought other brands of lever rifles, or found workarounds pretty easily for the trouble makers and don't have any of these problems.

 

[beagle]

I've read through this about 3 times, attempting to get conditions and effects in my mind. You say it's consistent. That means it's doing it every time which means it has something it don't like every time. Obviously you've checked the crown for a ding or a tight place under the front sight.
With a slow twist, if it were mine, think i'd grab some 429215s sized big. It's a GC and a short little booger. I'd load a few at about 1,000 FPS, 1200 FPS and maybe 1400 FPS. Slow twist, shorter bullet. Fire these at 50 yards and see what you get. 2400's good. Save about five of each load and try "berm shots" to more easily detect flyers. If you still got flyers with a short bullet like that at various velocities, you got a different problem. Just my thoughts. Maybe not MOA at 50 but should all be in one hole.

You recovered any fired bullets and looked at them. Should be able to see if they're unstable or not.

This is interesting. Keep us up to date on results. Haven't had this much fun since I tried to the the 357446 to shoot at normal velocities./beagle