The pursuit of Ideal

[Monochrome]

starting hunting in highschool with a remington 870 and a b square side saddle mount. Thing was crap, gave me a bad case of flinch since then. SIte in day was roughly 60 rounds of full power slugs because the barrel/scope mount were machined wrong. Working the slide would cause it to randomly wander off of zero. Got to go hunting with it twice. Not fun when at 70 yards, you see the slug hit dirt UNDER the deer.

Following year christmas brought me a muzzle loader. Hunted with it exclusively for about 10 years. Randomly loaned a 336 in 30-30 until i re zeroed it and harvested a 7 point.

Second year of muzzle loader came home from college for a weekend to find the 12 gauge had become a 870 express 20 gauge 3" with factory scope. Accurate as can be, just pricy to shoot.

In college fell in love with black powder military surplus rifles. Ended up with a mosin nagant that was actually made in 1930 or 1931 based on barrel code. Dont shoot it much, beats the hell out of me. And life is life on that.

Have a Yugo 24/47 from the original 1924 production run. Rebarrelled curtesy of Yugoslavia. Do not shoot it much at all. The sights suck, and the stock is too short for me. To get a proper cheeck wield, i have to hold the butt plate away from my shoulder with an air gap. Yeah, recoils like the hind leg of a goat that doesnt want to get milked.

Have used .243 win on deer. Got 1 with it, hornady gmx. that was a half mile hike uphill in brush to track. Wouldnt use the caliber or ammunition again.

Have "access" to my nieces .223 in theory due to having kept it fed and cleaned for her for 12 years. But when i want to use it... no one can find it. Have been present when it was used on deer multiple times. Caliber is accurate, but I think 357 magnum in a snubnose could give better hunting ability.

Bought a miracle rifle for the old man, ruger 450 bushmaster. Crappy gun, crappy factory ammunition. At 49 yards, the bullet can just explode and leave a golf ball entrance and exit wound in the shoulder bone. At 51 yards, the bullet can just explode and not even create an exit hole. To damned noisy. Way to noisy.

Have my own .308 ruger american. It shoots, it works deer. Hate the federal solid copper ammunition. Havent got a deer with any other ammunition in it. Have a case of PPU milspec it shoots poa/poi at 100 yards. Aint changing a thing.

2 years ago, the old man "needed" a 12 guage semi auto so he could keep hunting. We get it sighted in after spending nearly 100$ in brenneke slugs, and once it needs to be cleaned he hands it to me with "merry christmas" and simply went back to using the bushmaster.


Its just that with all the "searching" people have forced on me, by association, the ideal cartridge has actually been the 30-30 with 150 grain bullet. Yet for myself, the unholy issue is that due to a previous arm injury, a lever action is a no go for myself.



SO bear along with what some may consider less then good threads

 

[Petrol & Powder]

In college fell in love with black powder military surplus rifles. Ended up with a mosin nagant that was actually made in 1930 or 1931 based on barrel code.

You lost me here. Is that a typo? Black Powder Mosin Nagant?

 

[300BLK]

You lost me here. Is that a typo? Black Powder Mosin Nagant?

well today is 4/20

 

[Winelover]

Only shot at one deer with the 243W. Bang flop at around 75 yards. Loaded with Hornady Custom ammunition. IIRC, was a 100-grain bullet. Cindy took a couple of Michigan whitetails with it. Only one was a long track to recovery. Caliber is capable but unforgiving. I prefer the 100-grain bullets but are hard to find.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

When it comes to terminal ballistics in a hunting situation, particularly when talking about deer, I think it is difficult to have a baseline. Shot placement, direction of bullet impact, distance, how big is the deer, how fast was the bullet going at impact, what is your definition of a clean kill, etc., all make this an inexact science.

I will say the .243 Winchester is a popular deer cartridge and many who master it - like it. Failures are not always the fault of the cartridge, although blame for the failure will almost certainly land on the cartridge and not the shooter.

The 243 Win is a solid concept, a 308 Win casing necked down to take a 6mm bullet. The cartridge is capable of fine accuracy, has a fairly flat trajectory, and the bullet is clearly capable of cleanly taking deer sized game at responsible distances. However, that light 6mm bullet is unforgiving if there is a failure somewhere.

Lots of people will equip their younger hunters with a rifle chambered in 243 Win to take advantage of the low recoil. For east coast hunting where typical ranges are short, that’s more than enough cartridge for whitetail deer. Many young hunters develop a great deal of skill with the 243 and elect to stay with the 243 even when they get older.

 

[richhodg66]

I am a gun nut and as such, want to try everything, but have kind of come around on deer hunting. Bought a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor, slapped a 3x9 Leupold rifleman scope and the first handloads I threw together shot sub one inch groups. Five deer down with it now, puts them down decisively. The rifle is light, accurate, easy to shoot well, carries, points and handles well and is about the perfect power level. Ugly as a bowling shoe and shockingly boring in its predictability, the fudd in me wants to hate it, but it may well be the perfect all around deer rifle.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

My deer hunting days are over. I'm not opposed to it but I personally I no longer find it to be a fun activity.

My pinnacle hunting rifle was a Winchester Model 70 Classic. Stainless steel, controlled feed, synthetic stock, chambered in 308 Winchester. Topped with a Nikon 2 x 7 in low two-peice mounts. (couldn’t afford the 1.5 Leupold ). Accurate, weather resistant, absolutely reliable in every regard. It suited me perfectly, but I sold it when I got out of that game. No regrets.

 

[RBHarter]

Having hunted in diverse landscapes from 20 yd 8' high sage and quaking Aspen to 300 yd take it or leave it across flag stone white granite 1000 ft above the last tree I can with no reserve say " the 06' is never a mistake" . It has a long history , about 900 bullet choices , and inside 350 yd 4" high at 100 is meat in the freezer with out a whole lot of thought about over under between 50 and 300 yd just put it on the 6" vital plate and let the trigger break .

With that the 7×57 has a 20 yr head start one the 06' and has actually killed , probably in documented video everything from ground squirrels to elephant.......lost this post due to an icky 2 yo see the content in the other 30-30 ideal thread ........

 

[Petrol & Powder]

In a perfect world..........I really like the new 7 x 57 known as the 7mm-08. But caliber wars are unwinable, so I'll let it go......

 

[Jeff H]

....
Its just that with all the "searching" people have forced on me, by association, the ideal cartridge has actually been the 30-30 with 150 grain bullet...
....

I can definitely relate to that.

Had that picked out many years ago, but "other influences" inadvertently gaslighted me - sort of.

My biggest influence was my dad. He'd pick stuff for me based on ideals he did not apply himself. He bounced around a lot - seemed a bit fickle on some things and in some ways. It was, however the SINGLE thing (shooting, handloading, hunting) we could do together - the one thing we saw eye to eye on, so I rolled with it.

I had a lot of fun and learned a lot while I was trying to find the perfect gun (or battery of guns) to cover every possible situation imaginable. When my dad was no longer able to get out and shoot, I drifted back the other way, discarded all the "what-ifs" and ended up where I started fifty years ago - 357 and 30/30.

But, I had fun and it was something my dad and I could do together.

I do have a few other things still, but these two are my base and I could do without the other stuff, even without the 30/30 really, but I'll pare further as appropriate in terms of time and circumstance.

 

[Ian]

I don't deer hunt much anymore either, but if I were invited I would automatically reach for either my bolt action .308 or .30-'06 with variable scopes that go down to at least 3 power. Probably would grab the 308 first. Either of those is like an Estwing hammer, just WORKS.

 

[Monochrome]

on the 243 deers, broadside, bullet entering through a rib or between ribs. Every time the bullet passes through at least one lung. distance 40-60 yards, barrel length 20 or 22 inches, using remington 100 grain corelokt psp factory.

bullet from what i can see was the long range version that needed by ballistics tables, to travel about 100 yards before impact to get proper expansion. That was only found by going through reloading data, bullet photos, and the internet. Not at all on the box.

How would that be user failure?

 

[Winelover]

on the 243 deers, broadside, bullet entering through a rib or between ribs. Every time the bullet passes through at least one lung. distance 40-60 yards, barrel length 20 or 22 inches, using remington 100 grain corelokt psp factory.

bullet from what i can see was the long range version that needed by ballistics tables, to travel about 100 yards before impact to get proper expansion. That was only found by going through reloading data, bullet photos, and the internet. Not at all on the box.

How would that be user failure?

Placement.

 

[Monochrome]

Placement.

Ah i see, the bullet entering between two ribs, or through a rib, and cutting at least one lobe of the lung in half is BAD placement?

 

[Rick H]

If you only get one lung, yeah, its bad placement. Deer can live a long time with one lung.

I have had no problem with the 6mm Remington and 95-100gr. (Nosler solid base and Hornady SPBT) cup and core bullets at 3000fps. I feel they are a minimum caliber and bullet weight for deer, but very adequate. They are dynamite on pronghorn antelope. I am not a fan of the high shoulder shot nor quartering through the hams with such a small projectile but with a reasonable broadside shot in the boiler room I get full penetration and they have killed very well.

I have tried monolithic non-lead projectiles (Barnes) and have never found one that shot accurately in one of my rifles. (only tried them in 30 cal. and 7mm.) I feel for those folks who are required to use them.

 

[richhodg66]

I tend to hunt very close from tree stands whenever possible and most of my shots are close at unalarmed deer as a result, but I've averaged a couple per year for the past 30 years or so with a rather wide variety of this.

Put just about anything through both lungs, that deer will be on the ground in six or seven seconds max. doesn't seem to matter much if it's a bullet or broadhead, cast or jacketed. Thay ain't that hard to kill.

Only ever shot one deer with a 6mm and that was the result. I'd use it again, but really do in the back of my mind prefer the idea of something with more bullet mass.

Only shot one this year, two year old buck with the crossbow and hit both higher and farther back than I'd have likeds, still saw him go down maybe fifty yards away which was good as it was lightly raining and I didn't want to track.

I read these "Deer went half a mile" stories and I just have to wonder. I'm not the biggest killer of deer by a long shot but my experience simply doesn't allow for a deer staying alive that long after the shot unless something went badly wrong.

 

[Monochrome]

I tend to hunt very close from tree stands whenever possible and most of my shots are close at unalarmed deer as a result, but I've averaged a couple per year for the past 30 years or so with a rather wide variety of this.

Put just about anything through both lungs, that deer will be on the ground in six or seven seconds max. doesn't seem to matter much if it's a bullet or broadhead, cast or jacketed. Thay ain't that hard to kill.

Only ever shot one deer with a 6mm and that was the result. I'd use it again, but really do in the back of my mind prefer the idea of something with more bullet mass.

Only shot one this year, two year old buck with the crossbow and hit both higher and farther back than I'd have likeds, still saw him go down maybe fifty yards away which was good as it was lightly raining and I didn't want to track.

I read these "Deer went half a mile" stories and I just have to wonder. I'm not the biggest killer of deer by a long shot but my experience simply doesn't allow for a deer staying alive that long after the shot unless something went badly wrong.

If your experience is shooting 90# deer in a florida swamp, your results will vary.

Its like the 450 bushmaster hornady ftx ammo. people swear by it all day long when they like how it works. For those of us who use/used it, we despise it. Because of known defects in the bullet/jacket construction and bonding they have a major failure rate at ranges under i beleive 80 yards. 40-50 yards they dont always expand because the jacket curls inwards on the plastic tip and hollow point cavity.
Or they can simply explode like a 45 grain jsp going 3,000 our of a .223 remington when it hits a wood chuck at 100 yards.

 

[Winelover]

IIRC, this is a cast bullet forum. Can't believe how many members use jacketed bullets for hunting. Haven't loaded a jacketed round in over twenty-five years. I take most of my deer with archery tackle. Next would be muzzle loaders using RB. Occasionally, one with a carbine or pistol with cast.

 

[richhodg66]

If your experience is shooting 90# deer in a florida swamp, your results will vary.

Its like the 450 bushmaster hornady ftx ammo. people swear by it all day long when they like how it works. For those of us who use/used it, we despise it. Because of known defects in the bullet/jacket construction and bonding they have a major failure rate at ranges under i beleive 80 yards. 40-50 yards they dont always expand because the jacket curls inwards on the plastic tip and hollow point cavity.
Or they can simply explode like a 45 grain jsp going 3,000 our of a .223 remington when it hits a wood chuck at 100 yards.

I hunt in Kansas. Trust me, your deer don't have anything on ours for size, and guess what? Everything I just said it absolutely true of some really big deer I've killed here. Shot a buck with a crossbow a few years ago that was probably 250 hoofweight, massive deer. He took about eight steps and layed down for the last time.

Sounds to me like someone needs to spend less time pouring over ballistics and more time learning how to hunt. My two cents worth.

 

[Monochrome]

I hunt in Kansas. Trust me, your deer don't have anything on ours for size, and guess what? Everything I just said it absolutely true of some really big deer I've killed here. Shot a buck with a crossbow a few years ago that was probably 250 hoofweight, massive deer. He took about eight steps and layed down for the last time.

Sounds to me like someone needs to spend less time pouring over ballistics and more time learning how to hunt. My two cents worth.

450 Bushmaster Ammo (not happy with Hornady Black)

www.michigan-sportsman.com

Im also wondering if the erratic bullet performance people get is an issue of multiple bullets being loaded into the same batch of ammunition.