158 SWC with gas checks velocity

[johnnyjr]

I have 2 pretty accurate 50 yards loads with cast bullets. According to the Lyman manual they should be 900 to 1000 fps. 6 inch barrel. Is this enough for 40 to 50 yards deer hunting. The hotter loads are less accurate. Thanks johnny

 

[Bret4207]

Depends on where you hit them. Head shots between the lookers- absolutely! Lung shot- stand by for a lot of tracking. Treat like a 45 cal muzzle loader w/round ball. Also depends on the size of your deer. A 158 at 900fps on s 100 lbs deer is a lot different than the same on a 275lbs Northwoods buck in the rut.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I have 2 pretty accurate 50 yards loads with cast bullets. According to the Lyman manual they should be 900 to 1000 fps. 6 inch barrel. Is this enough for 40 to 50 yards deer hunting............

I think you are seeking an absolute rule where an absolute rule does not exist.

If someone replies, “yes, that’s a sufficient loading” and you shoot and wound a deer without a clean kill; you may place the blame on the person that approved your decision.

Your question is far too vague to be useful.

Shot placement, size of the deer, terminal performance of that bullet, intervening obstructions such as bone, are just a few variables involved.

You also don’t know if you’re really getting the velocity listed in the manual. That listed velocity may not correspond to your results.

I don’t think Whitetail Deer are bulletproof. Poachers have taken countless deer with .22 LR and .22 magnums. It’s certainly not ethical or legal but it does frequently work. Ethical hunters set the bar higher and have a responsibility to make a clean kill. Once we get above the legal threshold for caliber, the next hurdle is the hunter’s own ability. Most ethical hunters set personal limits of range and conditions for themselves. They will not take a questionable shot.

I’m not sure your question can be answered in a useful manner.

 

[JonB]

I'll add my 2¢, and that's all this is worth.
158gr at 900fps @ 50 yds, is enough for a well placed shot.

 

[Ben]

“It’s the Indian, not the arrow”

 

[Petrol & Powder]

“It’s the Indian, not the arrow”

To some extent.

I don’t believe it would be wise to hunt deer with a .22 short.

Nor is it necessary to use a .458 Winchester Magnum for Whitetail deer.

So, the arrow has some influence in the endeavor.

 

[Brad]

So many variable.

If I felt comfortable with a good broadside shot with a supported shooting position- maybe.
Concern to me is penetration thru bone if hit and a small diameter wound channel.
If I was using a 357 on deer I would prefer a 180 gr bullet to maximize penetration. That said, I would prefer a 44 special.

 

[Rick]

So many variable.

If I felt comfortable with a good broadside shot with a supported shooting position- maybe.
Concern to me is penetration thru bone if hit and a small diameter wound channel.
If I was using a 357 on deer I would prefer a 180 gr bullet to maximize penetration. That said, I would prefer a 44 special.

And I happen to know that you have quite a nice 44 special.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I fully agree that a .357 magnum cartridge is more than enough to kill a deer. Plenty of deer have been cleanly killed with lessor loads, including black powder, muzzle loading 36 caliber flintlocks shooting round balls.

If given the opportunity to select the 357 loading for that task, I too would probably opt for at least 170 grains, a soft lead bullet with a flat point or HP and a proven velocity of at least 950 fps. Not because that is necessary but because I owe a clean kill to the game I’m hunting. Add to that the responsibility of only taking shots one is confident in making.

 

[CZ93X62]

Only one deer with 357 handgun--Speer 146 half-jacket running close to 1400 FPS, 15 yards away. Two holes resulted, the animal piled right up. That time.

1984 me made that shot with confidence. 2023 me will use a larger and heavier bullet at similar velocity, or a rifle. Today is Opening Day, which I am avoiding. Tuesday or Thursday this coming week I may be afield.

With my Ruger Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5" I have sent Lyman #358156 to 1550 FPS with decent accuracy at 50 yards. I am disallowed from using lead alloys for hunting purposes these days, and the Rotometals alloy that is legal in CA to hunt with would scale about 123 grains; my 180 grain GC mould would produce a casting of 142 grains. In contrast the 44 and 45 mould of 255 grains lead alloy weight produce a 201 grain slug of more than half-again the frontal area. Just sayin'.

 

[Bret4207]

I've killed well over 100 car struck deer with a 357 jacketed and various 38 S, 9mm and 40 S+W. I've had to put as many as 13 357 rounds into a deer that had his blood up. Mind you, I hit that poor thing 12 times in the heart/lung/shoulder area and it was the Hail Mary headshot that put him down at 50+ yards in the dark swamp I was following him through. If you are confident of the particular shot, the 358156 is a lot better than the jacketed stuff we had to use.

 

[Brad]

I suppose it comes to can vs would.

I would prefer something bigger but then againI am a guy who considered using my Marlin 32-20 for deer. Would have required the right shot.

 

[Bret4207]

I have absolute confidence in being able to take a 150-175lbs deer with the right 32-20 load, out of the right rifle at the right range. It's the little variations that add up to shoot/don't shoot.

 

[Brad]

Agree 100%. Gotta be selective with shots you take when using a potentially marginal cartridge.
Face it, a 270 win is kinda overkill for deer in all reality. What it gives is margin for error.

 

[fiver]

i've successfully used a 32-20 load in the 30 carbine Blackhawk i got here somewhere to take a smaller Mule deer.
the shot was kept back in the rib/lung area and none were hit so i got a complete pass through.
the deer didn't go far and dropped dead.
but that was that shot,, ya know?

i will say if you look back at the 357's history and at some of the stuff Mr. Wesson done with it, you'd think the 357 was the hammer of Thor.
but then again Mr. Herter had the best of everything imaginable rolling around his shop too.

 

[Bret4207]

Just got done reading, AGAIN!, "Sixguns" an "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" by St Elmer. His take on the 357 was that it was nice, but didn't give you that much more than the 38/44. He didn't care much for the factory SWC loads and his experience mirrors that of a lot of other guys from that era as regards leading, not so hot accuracy, etc. Personally, I consider a 357 handgun adequate if not overkill on coyotes out as far as I can hit them. But I'd lots rather have a 357 rifle than a revolver if I was purposely after deer. But then it all comes down to the individuals ability, load and the shot presented.

 

[JonB]

Just got done reading, AGAIN!, "Sixguns" an "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" by St Elmer. His take on the 357 was that it was nice, but didn't give you that much more than the 38/44. He didn't care much for the factory SWC loads and his experience mirrors that of a lot of other guys from that era as regards leading, not so hot accuracy, etc. Personally, I consider a 357 handgun adequate of not overkill on coyotes out as far as I can hit them. But I'd lots rather have a 357 rifle than a revolver if I was purposely after deer. But then it all comes down to the individuals ability, load and the shot presented.

I kinda think Johnnyjr has a 357 rossi rifle and I was interpra-guessing his question of the 357 hunting load would be in a rifle, and the mention of 6" barrel in the OP, was just reference to the Lyman manual spec'd FPS ratings.

 

[Bret4207]

I believe he was down loading a 357 revolver for reduced recoil and this is where he wound up.

Guess we'll have to hear the answer from him.

 

[johnnyjr]

Appreciate all your replies. Yes I also have the rossi 92 in 38/357.
My question was using my 686 s&w with 6 inch barrel. I have been doing a lot of experimenting with the 38/44. Using the 358156 at 160 gr with gas checks. But I think I want to use the 358429 at 172 gr. . My concern is making sure I have a good velocity for a good pass thru if the opportunity comes around. Where I hunt,I doubt any shot will be over 50 yards. That is the distance I do most load testing at. Once again,I say thank you all for the advice. Johnny

 

[358156 hp]

Just got done reading, AGAIN!, "Sixguns" an "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" by St Elmer. His take on the 357 was that it was nice, but didn't give you that much more than the 38/44. He didn't care much for the factory SWC loads and his experience mirrors that of a lot of other guys from that era as regards leading, not so hot accuracy, etc. Personally, I consider a 357 handgun adequate if not overkill on coyotes out as far as I can hit them. But I'd lots rather have a 357 rifle than a revolver if I was purposely after deer. But then it all comes down to the individuals ability, load and the shot presented.

I've shot a lot of 38/44 loads and feel the same way. Plus I think Keiths 38/44 load is more accurate that a lot of 357 mag loadings with similar bullets.