.223 Remington with the Lyman 225646

[Wallyl]

I have done well using a Lyman 225462 in my .223 Remington. I have tried a used 225646 with many loads to no avail---I just cannot get decent groups with it At 50 yards every group is over 2" in my Rem 700. I size to .225" and have tried various seating depths and carefully culled the bullets for any imperfections...nothing seems to work. This bullet must be good as Lyman still offers it; meaning others are buying it.

Can anyone tell me of what your experience have been shooting it in a .223 bolt action rifle?

 

[Ian]

The various 646 designs are some of the best that Lyman ever produced. However, they are often undersized on the nose in front of the tapered shoulder (and driving portions too, depending on throat wear) so as always, Fit is King. The front bearing surface of the 646 is a lot smaller and farther back than the 462 so static alignment could be part of your problem. You need to compare a chamber throat casting to your prepared bullets to see where the problem lies. Is .225" sizing diameter a guess or is it based off of throat entrance diameter? What is your neck tension? What is your alloy? Are your case necks true after sizing and expanding? Is your chamber true to the bore?

 

[Wallyl]

I don't have the means to check for all of that BUT the tip on the 646 will not fit into the muzzle of the 700 .223; so I am guessing it is not undersized. Do you happen to know how wide teh front surface bearing is on your cast 646's.....mine measure at slightly larger than .219". The sizing diameter is .225". I use a Lyman M die---I the neck tension is such that you have a hard time seating the bullet in the neck by hand. Alloy is WW that is quenched from the mold.

 

[CZ93X62]

Only one bolter 223 in the stable currently, but it is a gem--older Ruger 77RC. 16.5" buggy-whip barrel, its accuracy surprised me when I bought it and continues to do so. With j-words to 200 meters it threatens 0.5 to 0.6 MOA, so it CAN shoot with redcoats. It shoots the RCBS 22-55-SP a shade over 1" at 50 yards and about 2-1/4" to 2-1/2" at 100 yards. I think there is more/better accuracy available from this barrel with castings, but California hunting regs have removed a lot of the incentive to work on cast lead bullets and their loads for me. It's all about the Condor Cuddlers hereabouts. The 1-9" twist seems to enforce a speed limit of about 1900-2000 FPS on conventionally-sized/lubed bullets, too.

In the mid-1980s I had a very accurate Rem 700 Varmint in 223 Rem. Even with its slower twist (1-12" or 1-14"), I couldn't make Lyman #225415 do anything of value. Like the Ruger, it was a tackdriver with any good-quality J-word up to 60 grains.

General experiences with 22/24/25 caliber rifles and castings--slow things down, both twist rates and velocities. I have gotten GREAT results from 3 different 243 rifles using the RCBS 6mm-95-SP castings atop 12.0-14.0 grains of 2400. 1-10" twist, in all cases. Another positive anomaly was with the 22 Hornet and Lyman #225438. 9.0 grains of 2400 gave it 2400 FPS and some of the best 100 and 200 yard accuracy I have ever had with castings. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

If accuracy with castings in rifles is magic, then accuracy with sub-30 caliber rifles and castings is definite advanced sorcery. I strongly suggest against voodoo- or Santaria-type incantations or ceremonies, though--even in California, the neighbors have very limited toleration for such events, as tempting as they might be under the circumstances.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Its odd. But the 223 at least all Mine I have tried also wont shoot cast. But my Hornet Bee and even 222 DO! I have read many others experience the same.

I borrowed this 646 mold from my buddy and cast up about 5#. I have shot a few but not many. I have a buddy who has a LEE bator mold and we swap every once in a while. Darned if that bator bullet isnt the best shooter for me in my K hornet and 10” ‘tender in bee!
My Savage 24v shot them really well too.

CW

 

[Wallyl]

I have done well with a Rem 700 .243 Win w/the RCBS 95 SP-GC bullet and 11.0 Universal. I have extensively loaded/tested the .22 Cal RCBS 55 SP-GC bullet in my .223 Rem and it is never as accurate as the 225462. I wish that it were as I like the fact that its' grease groove is in the case neck.

 

[Spindrift]

In my .223, results improved dramatically when I sized .226 instead of .225. 6 grs universal has been a good load for me, by the way.

 

[Wallyl]

Thanks, I will try to shoot then unsized and with the load mentioned.... It will be challenging to pan lube .22 Cal cast bullets.

 

[RBHarter]

Wally it's not as bad as it seems like it would be .

As soon I get some ducks back in the pin (no way they will be in a row) I'll finish the .177 sizer and anvil and try a few paper patched in the 1-8 twists . If it doesn't work I'll have a sizer for an old Beeman single and find a 17 or 18 cal mould I about 25 gr bullet . Most of the pellets don't fit it right as the nose is small . A BB rolls out the muzzle .

Fit is King and if it chambers freely it's not too big .

 

[Spindrift]

What I do to pan lube, is I fill the container to the desired "lube depth". Then cut holes with the appropriate "kake cutter", and put the cut-outs aside for future refill. Then, I just drop bullets in the holes while the lube is solid, and put the pan in the oven.

Next time, I'll have a pan with the holes already in place, just drop in the bullets. If the lube level is a little low, I ad some cut-outs. This way, pan lubing .22cal is no more stressful than .44. You'll need dedicated pans for all calibers, though.

 

[Ian]

I don't have the means to check for all of that Yes you do, but you have to want to. You'll find a set of instructions in the read-only tips/tricks section of this forum entitled "How I make pound casts". The critical measurements you need are throat entrance diameter and rifling origin size as well as the taper of the leade. You can also roll the cast on a flat surface and observe any wobble that would indicate an eccentric chamber and/or off-center leade. Examining the leade taper and relative lengths of rifling at the origin will tell you if the leade is concentric with the bore or not. BUT the tip on the 646 will not fit into the muzzle of the 700 .223 That tells you absolutely nothing about how the nose fits the important part which is the front end of the leade at the origin of the rifling; so I am guessing it is not undersized You can't guess at these things if you want to diagnose your problem. Do you happen to know how wide teh front surface bearing is on your cast 646's.....mine measure at slightly larger than .219" .217x.218 on what I've seen, need to be powder coated or lapped to fit a broken-in throat and doesn't fit NATO throats well at all unless coated. The sizing diameter is .225". I use a Lyman M die---I the neck tension is such that you have a hard time seating the bullet in the neck by hand That doesn't indicate much. Measure the prepared neck ID. .0015" is about as much as you want or need for the .22s. Alloy is WW that is quenched from the mold. How hard is it getting? How long are you waiting before shooting? .22s cool off fast and "water quenched from the mould" can go from no change to halfway between AC and oven-hardened.

This isn't as hard as it sounds, but if you don't get your ducks in a row and understand what you're working with and how to adapt to make the most of it, this rapidly turns into a 10,000 monkeys/typewriters/Hamlet exercise.

 

[Wallyl]

IAN I do appreciate your responses and I am cognoscente of what is required to do the things you are mentioned. This is a fun hobby for me. I refuse to be a "slave" to doing many things that others think are required. The purpose of this post is to hear from others that shoot the 646 in a .223 Rem bolt action rifle. The fellow I bought mold from has extensive experience shooting .22 caliber cast bullets...he got rid of it as it didn't meet with his criteria. I tried it and also have been unsuccessful.

Many years ago I bought a new 225462 mold that was just awful in my Rem 700....I gave up and traded it. Years later I bought a SC used 462 mold and found that with Unique and Red Dot it was quite good....1 " groups at 50 yards and 2" at 100. However I still would get flyers. I have found from others that shoot .22 cal cast, one can expect to have flyers with it...it goes with the territory.

I have challenged myself to try to get the 646 to shoot better, however I am not prepared to do so with too much effort. I didn't have to with any of the other 9 rifles calibers that I shoot cast bullets in. I guess you are right...I am the monkey at the typewriter and I on;y have a single page of paper and the ribbon just busted.

 

[Ian]

The thing is, anyone else's input will only be truly valid for THEIR particular rifles, even if all made by Remington. .223s in particular have throats cut to all manner of configurations and they are one of the calibers which does typically see a little throat wear. Since fit with the .22s is critical to accuracy with cast, you need to fit YOUR rifle for best results with the new-to-you bullet.

Sometimes I throw together a generally known-good combination for a certain cartridge, try it in a new rifle, and SHAZAM! it works. Much more often I try "easy" and end up having to take some measurements and see what's going on and make some corrections. Sometimes the fun goes away and when it becomes work, I bail out because like you said, that's not the point.

If you do get frustrated and wish to sell the mould, I'll give it a shot because it casts bigger than the one I have and that's what I need for my Mossberg MVP.

 

[Wallyl]

Thank you Ian, you of course are correct. Each shoots different, however it is always refreshing to hear from those that have enjoyed success. The 225646 was modified by the previous owner with one cavity being a HP....I never use the HP cavity. He sent it out to some fellow who does such things from the CASTBOOLITS website.

I also think you for your understanding...I am not interested in going all the way for ultimate performance.

I will continue to work with it, just to experiment as I like to monkey around. I will do two things...1) seat the 646 so it snuggles up to the Leade 2) load 'em undersized; pan lubing them.

BTW I do make my own aluminum GCs and some are thrown off upon firing. One would think that is really bad news (I sure don't like it one bit) HOWEVER I shot groups with mine vs Hornady (which always stay on)... I couldn't tell any noticeable difference when I did & I did this with the .223 Rem & .22-250 Rem.

 

[Wallyl]

As luck would have it I happen to have a Lee bullet lube cutter in .22 caliber! They used to offer them in many calibers so I bought one in .22 & 6mm when they did. Thanks for the tip....

What I do to pan lube, is I fill the container to the desired "lube depth". Then cut holes with the appropriate "kake cutter", and put the cut-outs aside for future refill. Then, I just drop bullets in the holes while the lube is solid, and put the pan in the oven.

Next time, I'll have a pan with the holes already in place, just drop in the bullets. If the lube level is a little low, I ad some cut-outs. This way, pan lubing .22cal is no more stressful than .44. You'll need dedicated pans for all calibers, though.

 

[Wallyl]

The issue with long, tall, skinny .22 cal bullets is when you pass the flame over them in the lube; as the lube melts, often they fall over and you get a "domino" effect. Of course I will try it. Another technique is to seat the bullet so it just enter the case neck to to insert the GC. You warm up some lube and apply with your fingers. You then re-seat to the desired depth.

 

[Wallyl]

Ian,

You inspired me to thinking....why is the 225462 so accurate and the RCBS 55 SP-GC & Lyman 225646 not in my 700 .223 Rem? So I took an empty fired .223 Rem case and slightly squeezed the neck enough so it could retain a bullet. I then carefully chambered and extracted it; then measured how deep the bullet was set back when chambered.

The 225646 came out to 2.245" * in Case Overall Length (COL)----that means the bullet is seated so that the GC shank and the first (tiny) lube groove is in the case neck before it touches the Leade.

The RCBS 55-SP-GC the COL was 2.253" or at the bottom edge of its' single lube groove.

I had been seating the bullets too deep allowing for appreciable "free bore"; it's no wonder they weren't accurate. With the 225462 the bullet shank is a cylinder with a domed nose....it stands to reason it would shoot better. My next step is to load & shoot the bullets seated out "long" and see what the results are. I have a feeling that there will be quite an improvement. I will have to load each round manually as they will not do well loading in the magazine of the rifle. Sadly shooting season is over with for me in 2019; I'll have to do this next March.
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* Lyman's 50th edition reloading handbook states that the COL for the 225646 in the .223 Rem is 2.26":

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Powder coat eliminates need for lube...

just sayin.

cw

 

[Ian]

Powder coat eliminates need for lube...

just sayin.

cw

Just what I was thinking. Pan-lubing .22s is a nightmare, I would just finger-lube them and put them through a Lee sizer, but no, actually I would just gas check, size, and powder coat them and be done with it.

 

[Wallyl]

I have read about this "phenomenon"....it seems that long .22 Cal cast bullets will bend when sized too much....

".22s bullets, being fragile, required special attention when sizing. Even the force of seating and sizing down a gas check that hasn’t been annealed will bend the bullet. For this reason, I size nose first and then come back and lube in a separate operation."

My 700 has a ,2235" bore so theoretically a .225 sized bullet woudl be ideal and a .226" would be a tad too large, however if teh bullets are bending when being sized down to .225"; that accounts for why a .226" sized bullet would be more accurate. I quote the same author about sizing for the .223 Remington...

"The sizing diameter is another matter. Most companies recommend .225 as the sizing diameter. I’ve had better luck with .224” and that’s what Lyman recommends. I was reading an article by H. Guy Louverin (father of the Louverin designs) the other night and he recommends .226”"



Also, the same author stated...

"Groups from the .223 will usually run about 1 ½” with many flyers. I have never broken the code on making one hole groups. I have almost got there but then the obligatory flyer steps in."

In my .223, results improved dramatically when I sized .226 instead of .225. 6 grs universal has been a good load for me, by the way.