9mm Parabellum

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I don’t care if you call it the 9mm Luger, 9 x 19 or just 9mm, it is nearly impossible to mention this cartridge without generating disparaging comments, or at the very least: unfair comparisons. Let’s explore the world’s most widely distributed handgun cartridge.

Its history is well known but for just a reminder, the 9mm Parabellum was introduced in 1902, making the cartridge 122 years old. It was designed by Georg Johann Luger, and it was derived from the 7.65×21mm Parabellum (7.65 Luger) cartridge. The 9mm is essentially a 7.65 Luger cartridge with the bottleneck removed and the resulting slightly tapered, slightly shorter, rimless casing holding a 9mm bullet. The cartridge was a high pressure, smokeless powder cartridge from the beginning.

It's interesting that even though Georg Luger would have been aware of contemporary semi-rimmed designs of the day, he chose to go with a rimless case design. He also wasn’t afraid to use the advantages of smokeless powder to its full potential. The 9mm Luger is a truly high-pressure pistol cartridge. To this very day, I run across knuckle-dragging morons that proclaim the 38 Special cartridge is bigger than the 9mm and is therefore more powerful than the 9mm. Really ?????

After its 1902 debut in the Luger pistol the cartridge goes on to eventually become THE military handgun & submachine gun cartridge in Europe. This domination doesn’t happen overnight and there are holdouts, but by the end of WWII the 9mm is the clear king outside of the Soviet controlled areas of Europe.

Across the pond things take a different path. Sure, some of the central and south American countries have strong ties to the old world and Canada is trying to get along with both the British Empire and the U.S.A., but the U.S. military went with the 45 ACP. Even when NATO is formed and every member nation except for the U.S., adopts the 9mm, the U.S.A. holds onto the 45 ACP.

So, after two world wars and it’s 1949. NATO is formed and the Cold War lines are solidly drawn. The 9mm cartridge is unquestionably established by this time. It’s well known worldwide and well accepted in large portions of the world but not well accepted in the U.S. of A.

The 9mm is not a stranger in post WWII U.S.A. There are multitudes of Walther P-38, Luger P-08, Browning Hi-Power and other pistols chambered for that “foreign” cartridge in post WWII America. Unfortunately, in the early days of post WWII America almost all the available 9mm ammunition was FMJ. And a lot of it is loaded below its acceptable pressure levels.

In the early 1950’s, Smith & Wesson produces the Model 39, but the U.S. military stays with the 45 ACP. In 1955 the model 39 is released on the civilian market but outside of the true firearms enthusiasts and collectors, the 9mm cartridge continues to be something of a novelty in the U.S.A. The Illinois State Police adopts the S&W Model 39 in 1967 and that along with the eventual development of the Federal Ammunition 9BP hollowpoint cartridge was a small step towards American acceptance of the cartridge.

By the 1970’s there is a flood of new pistol development in Europe. We see the Beretta 92 (derived from the Beretta 1951), H&K is born from the ashes of WWII and is extremely innovative, Walther and SIG introduce new designs. Even the Czechs get in the game with the CZ-75 (although that pesky Iron Curtain is a bit of an impediment). In the early 1980’s an Austrian named Glock will introduce something that will also have an impact on the market for the 9mm Luger cartridge.

By the 1980’s the 9mm cartridge is finally starting to gain some acceptance in the U.S.A., sort of like that son in law from a different national origin that is finally accepted into the family when it is apparent that he is an honorable, hard working man of good character.

Everything is looking good for the foreign born 9mm Luger son in law to be welcomed into the American family, but you knew there would be a spoiler. The quality of the available ammunition, particularly the jacketed hollowpoint ammunition, was all over the map. There was some very good 9mm ammunition in the 1980’s and early 1990’s when the 9mm cartridge was enjoying its American tsunami days BUT, there was also some very bad ammo. The reputation of the cartridge took an undeserved hit. Anecdotal stories of the failures of the 9mm cartridge abounded and spread like wildfire. Many of these stories were based on the use of FMJ rounds (often by criminals and idiots), some of these reports were spread by people that just hated the cartridge in general and a lot was just pure misinformation. The stories of failures would only identify the cartridge as, “A 9mm” and little more. Sort of like saying the 2 door Chevrolet lost the race, without specifying if it was a Corvette or a Chevette?

The FBI report after the Miami shootout did the cartridge no favors and only fueled the fires of bias towards the cartridge.

However, despite the deck being stacked against the 9mm Luger, the positive traits could not be denied. The bullet is almost the same diameter as the beloved 38 Special/357 magnum (albeit typically a little lighter). The operating pressure of the cartridge is 35K. The small size of the cartridge belies its power. Sure, one can always find a comparison that shows a negative contrast but is that a fair evaluation?

The currently available 115-125 grain +P and +P+ JHP offerings have accumulated a good track record of performance. The 9mm Luger has faced a long road to acceptance in the U.S.A.

Isn’t it time we let it sit at the dinner table with the rest of the family?
 

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
Also, it is now universally accepted by the US Military. First with the Beretta 92 and more recently, the Sig 320 platform/customizable pistol.

Personally, I never got on the 45 ACP bandwagon. My second pistol purchase, in the 70's was the Browning HP. Since then, I have accumulated four other DAO pistols and two carbines.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I got no beef about the 9 , but it's not wildly superior to the 38 in many ways much past 12-16 vs 5-7 in capacity. A P35 is a work of art compared to a 1935 H&R or "cheap" ejector in the wind model of those available in that time .

I guess the whole "115-125 at 1100 fps" chant is what burns me most 2.5" pistols won't do it it takes the 3-4" it was designed in . With the older 38 pumped up to 15kpsi or it's baby sister that's bumped up to match the 9s 35 kpsi standard any advantage it had dries up , except capacity. Force it out to match weights and velocity dries up.

It's a dead heat at 130-135 gr bullet .

I like my 9 , 38 ,357 , 40 , and 45s , but I don't hoorah them .
Much like the 118 yo 06' , 129 yo 7×57 and 127 yo 8×57 there must be something great and of real applied value besides war stories from 1917 keeping them in demand .
 

dannyd

Well-Known Member
Just started loading 9mm this month, does have a learning curve, but 370 rounds without to many problems.
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
I've shot and loaded for 38/357 for years and like the cartridges. My first 9x19 was in a Star Model 28 circa 1980. It was a big, heavy (all steel) double stack, DA, but I traded it off for something else.

Fast forward to Covid/George Floyd/summer of "peaceful protests" and election. I started to carry my all steel S&W 640 3" and thought it too heavy, so bought a 637 (rated +P). It was lighter, but still bit into my hip when carried IWB at 4 o'clock. I decided to TRY a subcompact 9x19, and bought a Sig P365. It has bold sights, more capacity, and is pretty flat so can be carried all day IWB without noticing. Modern 9x19 "carry ammo" most definitely has more velocity than a short 38 regardless of bullet weight, and bullets are designed to expand.

I found chrono data just the other day from the early 90s. It was my 3" 640 with Federal Nyclad 158gr SWC+P and they were just a bit above 800fps. 125s almost made 900fps, and would be even less in the 1-7/8" 637.

I have more faith in ballistic gel tests with modern 9x19 "carry ammo" than I do with any 38Spl loadings +P or not. They are better than a sharp stick, but 5 compared to 10+1 or 12+1 doesn't seem like a fair comparison.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Just started loading 9mm this month, does have a learning curve, but 370 rounds without to many problems.
Reloading the 9mm is a little more difficult to master than say reloading 38 Special. If you toss cast bullets into the mix, there an additional level of complexity. It's not terrible by any means and any competent reloader can do it. The 9mm is justa bit less forgiving.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Proper & decent 9 x 19 ammo is a mid-point between 38 Special and 357 Magnum in a given barrel length. 'Proper & Decent' = 115-125 grain bullets of proper form running in the 1200-1250 FPS ZIP Code, let's note. That is what gets carried in my Glock 43 and SIG P-226 these days, God forbid their necessity.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I would put a 124 grain 9mm JHP travelling at 1200+ fps closer to 357 Magnum than to 38 Special, so instead of using Al's "mid-point" description I would say it is at the 3/4 mark between 38 Special and 357 magnum. But by any measurement, it is a capable cartridge.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
On a related note, I was just scrolling through the Cal-DOJ Bureau of Firearms Roster (the document describing the handguns that the proles in Kalifornistan can lawfully purchase). Nicely enough, Gavin The Magnificent has ordained that we The Great Unwashed can now purchase the SIG-Sauer models P-320 and P-365 in its California-compliant sub-models with 10-round magazines. A largesse from on high, indeed.
 

JBinMN

Member
I have no issue with using a 9mm for SD.

Sometimes I use other calibers, but a 9mm works for me, if I choose to carry one
 

JBinMN

Member
Something for folks to use to compare the 9mm & the .357m, for examples if they want to take the time to check things out.

I was thinking about this topic , and although I still make choices on what I want to carry, caliber/platform/capacity,etc., depending on circumstances & even what environment I am in. ( Hot & light clothes vs Cold & heavier clothes type weather, etc.)
I am not pushing the 9mm & not trying to influence anyone.

Do as ya see fit and make your own choices to suit yourself. ;)

I am just offering folks the options/opportunity to look for themselves on what data could be available to make the their own best decisions possible, for your own circumstances.

Here are some things to look at for comparisons...

The Lucky Gunner Ballistics tests:

9mm : https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

.357M: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#357mag
Of course there are more comparisons to see at that website depending on what calibers ya wish to compare.

Here is the link to the Lucky Gunner main list of their tests & one can choose which they wish to compare to whatever one likes.


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Another way to look at things is to use a kinetic type calculator.
Here are some to try, if one wants to do the work to find out. (You just have to know what you can either purchase and use their parameters, or as some of us do, make your own stuff. ;) ) :




One of my favorites that also makes it easy to compare is this one:


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I would hope that using some of these resources might help some folks to know a bit more about what cartridges can do depending on how they are loaded, per the parameters that are safe & also effective.

I know some folks here are well informed and have already done their own research, and made their own choices.
At the same time... Some folks may Not have done so & may not know of these resources. I would think that in the interest of sharing info & knowledge amongst all of us here, that no one would belittle someone trying to help others...

I am not pushing the 9mm to anyone. I am just trying to share some info here so that folks can be informed, by doing the research themselves & make their own decisions, rather than just reading about anecdotal stuff.

Make good choices/decisions & Best to ya'll.
;)





YMMV, of course.
 

Rushcreek

Well-Known Member
Even though it’s never been my favorite auto pistol cartridge, it seems like I’ve always kept a 9mm pistol around.
It’s a perfect fit in a back pocket sized pistol.
Side note: The most accurate 9mm Parabellum pistol that I’ve ever owned or shot was an Astra 600/43. From the bench @100 yards, I shot a fist size full magazine group - a few times.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I like the 9mm due to using less lead than the 45 acp. I don’t mind shooting a 9mm indoors where I know I will lose some cases because I know I will find replacements, and supplemental cases, all summer outdoors. The 45 acp cases seem to always get picked up,
 

LEC Guy

Active Member
Even though it’s never been my favorite auto pistol cartridge, it seems like I’ve always kept a 9mm pistol around.
It’s a perfect fit in a back pocket sized pistol.
Side note: The most accurate 9mm Parabellum pistol that I’ve ever owned or shot was an Astra 600/43. From the bench @100 yards, I shot a fist size full magazine group - a few times.
The Astra's shoot well. They have fixed Barrels. The Astra 400 has a bit longer Barrel than the 600. They are just single row magazine, old tech that no one wants anymore. The one in this pic is a 400 in 9mm Largo. My wife has family in Spain. I took this picture a few years ago to show them some old Spanish Steel here in the States. They can't own these in Spain.

Bruce
Spanish_Pistols.jpg