Alloy advice for cast hp pistol bullets.

[burbank.jung]

This is where I am: I plan to cast hollow point bullets for testing using my MP 45-200, MP 40-160, and MP 38-125 soon, casting both round and hex hollow points and will test alloys of various amounts of tin to control the malleability. I'm using range retrieved pellet lead measured at 8bhn, jacketed bullet core lead measured at 9bhn, and .22lr lead measured at 13-15bhn. I've read that .22lr lead makes good hp bullets. Also, I think there is antinomy in all the lead of various amounts and work with the standard ingot alloys I have and as for the .22lr lead, there could be commercial hardcast lead in the mix. From my quick internet search, 2% is recommended and 3% is the maximum. I have water jugs and wet CA Election Voting Pamphlets to shoot at. The load I am using is from a previous test using range lead segregated as soft/medium/hard and chosen per caliber by chamber pressure. An accuracy load was determined. Now with softer bullet, I expect accuracy to decrease but I'll revisit the load later. The cast bullets are powder coated.

So here is my question. I'm trying to find the best amount of tin to add for a given retrieved lead source. Would 1%, 2%, 3% of tin per alloy be adequate or add an additional .5% so it would be original range lead cast / +.5%, +1.5%, +2%, +2.5%, 3%? Has anyone run a test like this before?

Thanks

 

[Winelover]

There is no definitive answer. Depends on caliber, distance, velocity, depth of HP pin, besides alloy composition. Make your selections and put in all the testing work.

My preference for HP alloy is one of the pure to tin ratio alloys...........20-1, 25-1, 30-1 etc. The reason being it can be readily duplicated.

Unless you have access to ballistic gelatin, it's going to be a crap shoot.

I test mine in a beach sand berm.............which is a very hard medium. I can get a good idea, how they might perform on game, by comparing the same bullet cast as a solid, shot at the same velocity, at the same media. If the HP doesn't lose much grain weight but expands, I call it good.


Recovered 44 caliber HP's, shot in my Marlin carbine.



Same bullet as a solid. Same load.

 

[358156 hp]

I gave up trying to blend a repeatable alloy for HPs and started buying 20-1 & 30-1 from Rotometals or Buffalo Arms. Winelovers first sentence pretty much covers it all, and my recommendation mirrors his as well. You'll find that each HP mould is a rule unto itself, and that there are no blanket answers.

To give a quick example, Lyman/Ideal 358429HP and 358439 are essentially the same bullet. The design is the same, but often the hollowpoint stems are slightly different lengths, 358429HP originally had a slightly deeper HP stem than 358439. At lower velocities that wouldn't matter much, but at higher speed 358429HP could expand more, and faster, or even fragment and shed its nose sooner. To add to the frustration, I do have 358429HP moulds and 358439 moulds that have the same length stems, and I have others that have different length stems.

This could happen with other moulds simply because of manufacturing variances. I also have nearly identical moulds in 358156HP that have different pin diameters and different length pins. So each combination needs to be worked up separately to achieve your intended purposes. This also doesn't mean that you can't find a combination that works satisfactorily for you regardless of which mould is used. You could also notice differences in performance based on barrel length. These are the reasons that I standardized my alloys to minimize variations stemming from that direction.

My last mixed alloy was SOWWs fluxed half to death with pewter for tin, but some pewter also contains trace amounts of copper which strengthens alloys. It was pretty tough to get any consistency the way I was approaching the alloy angle.

 

[burbank.jung]

First, thanks for your replies. Variables. It's the word that seems to sum everything up when we are looking for a load that prints and performs what we want it to.

Winelover mentioned using beach sand. Since, I assume you hunt with your cast bullets, does the sand medium best simulates the resistance to certain animals you hunt like say pig or deer? Do you prefer jugs of sand than water? I saw a person shoot his handloads into a 50gal barrel of water.

358156. Have you ever tried (I forgot the term), pouring a soft nose pure lead tip from laddle first, followed by a harder alloy that would expand? Then, I could ever water drop the whole think after I pic it? Or, filling the cavity to promote expansion? Sometimes knowing the journey is better than just hearing the result. Has adding a gas check helped since you have a better option to add velocity and (I assume) while better retaining accuracy?

Thanks

 

[Rockydoc]

What is the intended purpose of your bullets?

 

[Tomme boy]

Unless you plan to use them for hunting or self protection it is a waste of time and money to chase this. I have several hp molds and some are more accurate than others with the hp pins. Not trying to say you should not do it, but they way resources are now adays I would just use whatever you have on hand to practice to be more proficient shooting.

 

[Winelover]

^^^^This

I use beach sand because it is easier, cleaner & more economical to recover/sift my lead.




For social work, I use factory ammo. I let the manufacturers test and decide what works. For deer hunting, either one of the two different 44 bullets, posted , will harvest game.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I agree with all Previous statements. All sage advice.

But I understand and figure your gonna still move forward.

Here is what I found with my bullets in my guns with my loads under my conditions...

I like COWW & slightly harder for my Rifle hunting loads. My loads target 1800 fps and are impacting inside 125 yards. I see expansion in these loads. More on bones less on flesh only.

For my 380/45 ACP I like 30:1 HP are large and deep for caliber velocity is 850-950. Impact distance 15-25 yards. I see good expansion in water. Over expansion in wet news print.

My 357 and 10mm like 20:1 and 1200 fps same distances. Bullets have smaller but still deep HP holes. Again good expansion in water and over expansion in wet news print.

This gets me pretty close to ideal for what I want.

Hope this gives you something you can test with.

CW

 

[fiver]

30-1 with a gas check has been proven out like tooooo hundred jillion times.

 

[358156 hp]

30-1 with a gas check has been proven out like tooooo hundred jillion times.

Yes, and I have two designs of HP moulds with gaschecks, and this is one of the main reasons I left mixing HP alloy behind. I went deep into detail to save OP some frustration starting out by outlining some of the variables he may encounter. OP hasn't discussed moulds yet.

 

[fiver]

well yeah,, i mean we can toss alloy around for 2-3 days.
and then go into intermetallic bonding, sbsn chains,what copper does, water dropping.
or just tell the OP what/where he is gonna end up [with] when/after he finally gets around to shooting up a few hundred pounds of alloy.

 

[358156 hp]

<snip>

358156. Have you ever tried (I forgot the term), pouring a soft nose pure lead tip from laddle first, followed by a harder alloy that would expand? Then, I could ever water drop the whole think after I pic it? Or, filling the cavity to promote expansion? Sometimes knowing the journey is better than just hearing the result. Has adding a gas check helped since you have a better option to add velocity and (I assume) while better retaining accuracy?

Thanks

I haven't gone this direction yet. There are different ways of approaching this, one of the most novel being the approach from our late friend BruceB who taught us his way of casting softpoints with a hard and a soft alloy, His method wouldn't work with HPs since it requires heating the mould in molten alloy to keep the soft alloy somewhat molten while the harder alloy is poured on top to get a more perfect joint between the two alloys. He also recommended locking handles IIRC. Veral Smith at LBT used to offer a modified bottom pour casting pot that held two different alloys that could be immediately dumped, one right after the other. The joint between the two alloys has always been a concern for this practice.

I have seen videos from casters who filled the hollowpoints with things like caulking in hopes of improving expansion as well. Gaschecks are a definite help to get a soft bullet up to speed for more consistent expansion, but it's very possible to overspeed soft bullet alloys in revolvers, the first sign of this is usually a leaded forcing cone. A soft bullet can slug up in the transition from cylinder throat if pushed too fast. This causes the center of the bullet to expand a bit as the nose of the bullet engages the barrel rifling past the forcing cone. the bullet makes it down the barrel okay but is damaged and accuracy goes to hell. The best indicator of this is as I mentioned before, a leaded forcing cone. This happens to some degree with any soft bullet that is pushed past its velocity limits, not just hollowpoints. Powdercoating may help mitigate this situation a bit.

 

[358156 hp]

well yeah,, i mean we can toss alloy around for 2-3 days.
and then go into intermetallic bonding, sbsn chains,what copper does, water dropping.
or just tell the OP what/where he is gonna end up [with] when/after he finally gets around to shooting up a few hundred pounds of alloy.

Truth.

 

[fiver]

the filled noses just replicates stuff like the hornady FTX soft tip, the old poweR-ball, the barnes TTSX, the SST etc.

 

[burbank.jung]

Yes, and I have two designs of HP moulds with gaschecks, and this is one of the main reasons I left mixing HP alloy behind. I went deep into detail to save OP some frustration starting out by outlining some of the variables he may encounter. OP hasn't discussed moulds yet.

I'm using MP molds. No gas check but am thinking about making something that'll cut a gas check groove.

 

[358156 hp]

You can't add a gascheck step to a mould that doesn't already have one. You can check to see if there is anyone making a plain base gascheck for what you're doing.
Here's a web page for you if you don't already have it: https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com...ed-cast-lead-hollow-point-bullet-testing-lob/

 

[burbank.jung]

Okay, thank you. Now I need to make a gas check groove cutter. I'm thinking of finding a small wooden cube, finding the center and drilling a hole the size of the bullet diameter, shimming the removed wood from the cutting blade and leave a small square cutter on the bottom. It will work like a pencil sharpener when I turn the bullet from the top.

 

[Winelover]

or just purchase a gas checked mold. Almost my pistol bullet molds have at least half the cavities with GC, for use with the softer alloys and or carbine use.............the advantage of going with custom makers. Rifle molds are all gas checked.

 

[Bret4207]

forget it

 

[burbank.jung]

or just purchase a gas checked mold. Almost my pistol bullet molds have at least half the cavities with GC, for use with the softer alloys and or carbine use.............the advantage of going with custom makers. Rifle molds are all gas checked.

I can't afford that.