Water dropping is the same as heat treating. It is the rate of cooling that determines hardness, for a given alloy. Adding heat to an alloy allows the molecules to 'run around' and find a stable 'location'. Rapid cooling freezes the stable 'locations' while slow cooling allows running around to less 'stable' location. Molecule mobility in a solid is small but hardness will degrade over time.
Alloy mix ??
- Thread starter johnnyjr
- Start date
johnnyjr
Well-Known Member
What does powder coating do to the bullet that's so much different than regular lube...
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
It's my understanding, powder coating requires bullets to be reheated in a oven at a required temperature & time. That can be construed as annealing/softening.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
Water dropping, is a form of heat treating. Can't be as consistent as oven heat treating. If the bullet hangs up in the mold or even dropped from a different height, cooling has already started. Also, the water bath will heat up as hot bullets are added. That alters rate of cooling. When oven heat treating all the bullets hit the water bath at the same time and temperature.
JonB
Halcyon member
I am thinking the answers you've been given to this question are NOT in the direction you are trying to go...correct me if I'm wrong.
.
With Hardball alloy, if you Heat treat or cold water drop from the mold, you can get a BHn up around 28. If you cast as typical and allow the bullets to be air cooled, then Hardball alloy will be 16 in two to three weeks. There is no speeding up that final hardening. You can expect Hardball alloy to be about 14 within an hour of being cast, then the numbers creep up, little by little (in a non-linear fashion), over the next three weeks. Any "tricks" you might try to speed up the 3 week hardening period will likely change the final BHn.
.
With all that said ...Bret, myself, and others have tried to tell you that BHn doesn't matter very much, compared to a hundred other variables. If you cast some, then load 'em and shoot a Deer, within a week, and the BHn is only 14, the deer is still gonna be just as dead as if the bullet was 16.
johnnyjr
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply.
fiver
Well-Known Member
correct, simply putting powder coat on doesn't do anything but set the powder in place.
to get a proper heat treat the bullets have to be heat soaked to the core and then water quenched.
the quick quench is what locks the antimony in place all over the bullet basically tricking the alloy into having small pockets of antimony crystals spread around that work on more of the lead.
it doesn't actually add anything more or take anything away it just distributes things in the alloy more evenly.
[IOW the SbSn chain is broken]
powder just adds even more slickery to the bullet.
compare a cast bullet to a jacketed bullet, and really look at the loads used, the pressures the velocities etc. and then step it off further to even more with the coated bullet.
the engraving pressure is lower, the friction in the barrel is lower, it evades gas cutting better especially when combined with the more square copper base [which may or may not be needed]
to get a proper heat treat the bullets have to be heat soaked to the core and then water quenched.
the quick quench is what locks the antimony in place all over the bullet basically tricking the alloy into having small pockets of antimony crystals spread around that work on more of the lead.
it doesn't actually add anything more or take anything away it just distributes things in the alloy more evenly.
[IOW the SbSn chain is broken]
powder just adds even more slickery to the bullet.
compare a cast bullet to a jacketed bullet, and really look at the loads used, the pressures the velocities etc. and then step it off further to even more with the coated bullet.
the engraving pressure is lower, the friction in the barrel is lower, it evades gas cutting better especially when combined with the more square copper base [which may or may not be needed]
richhodg66
Well-Known Member
I was thinking today, I have a lot of linotype and a lot of tin with a steady source for moire tin free from work.
Wuld I be wrong to just settle on Lyman #2 for everything (except the occasional hunting bullet in smaller calibers) and be done with it?
Wuld I be wrong to just settle on Lyman #2 for everything (except the occasional hunting bullet in smaller calibers) and be done with it?
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
Do you want to just use the material, or work with one or two basic alloys.
1 part soft lead, 1 part lino gives 2-6-92
Cut the 2-6-92 with an equal amount of soft lead and you have a nice pistol alloy.
Tin and soft lead make a great hunting bullet, or work with the 1-3-96 which is almost COWW.
You might just make a small batch of each, then test and see what shoots best, or works best as a hunting alloy. I think that in this area, COWW are becoming hard to find, and soft lead is Good for BP and blend for however hard you want for the other uses. It is really nice to have the options.
1 part soft lead, 1 part lino gives 2-6-92
Cut the 2-6-92 with an equal amount of soft lead and you have a nice pistol alloy.
Tin and soft lead make a great hunting bullet, or work with the 1-3-96 which is almost COWW.
You might just make a small batch of each, then test and see what shoots best, or works best as a hunting alloy. I think that in this area, COWW are becoming hard to find, and soft lead is Good for BP and blend for however hard you want for the other uses. It is really nice to have the options.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
You'd have to define "wrong". There's nothing wrong with using a harder alloy IF you can get that alloy/load/gun to FIT together and work. But a harder alloy on it's own does nothing that I can see in most cases. I played the "harder is better" game for years and I still have bars of tin and tin/antimony laying around here somewhere. Harder wasn't what I needed, FIT was what I needed and fit is as easy to get at 13 Bhn as at 18, if you can juggle the pieces together. I don't think, personally, any hunting bullet for anything in the eastern US needs or benefits from an alloy running harder than 15-16 at the most if velocities are 2300-ish or less. The individual gun/bullet/powder etc will be the determining factor there. For a guy shooting a 223 AR, that's something else again and I have no experience there.
Myself, I mixed up several hundred lbs of alloy probably 20 years ago. It was all pre-2000 WW going back into the 1960's and a little pure from some dive weights I had. Runs between 13-14 depending on when I tested it. I've heat treated, I've water dropped, I've juiced it with SN/SB and i've had ingots that ran 27-28Bhn...and they shot like crap. FIT is what I was seeking and Bhn is one small part of fit and that's about all there is to it.
I get amused at these conversations. If one were to try to write a method of getting cast to work, Ideas?
Suggest first starting with fit and a softer alloy. Work hardness up to get the fps and accuracy YOU need, in YOUR gun. Then consider terminal performance. Adjust as needed. Try to change ONE thing at a time. If you change powder or load, start again.
Other method is just size over bore with your batch of alloy and ask questions in forums.
Suggest first starting with fit and a softer alloy. Work hardness up to get the fps and accuracy YOU need, in YOUR gun. Then consider terminal performance. Adjust as needed. Try to change ONE thing at a time. If you change powder or load, start again.
Other method is just size over bore with your batch of alloy and ask questions in forums.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i don't see anything wrong with 5/5 alloy for pretty much whatever.
it pretty much boils down to convenience and cost for most of us.
we take what we got and make it work in what we have.
it's just a 'coincidence' [cough free cough] that the majority of us end up with something close to 1% tin and 3% antimony as our main alloy.
it pretty much boils down to convenience and cost for most of us.
we take what we got and make it work in what we have.
it's just a 'coincidence' [cough free cough] that the majority of us end up with something close to 1% tin and 3% antimony as our main alloy.
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
I agree with fiver. We are fortunate to be able to work with several material sources to develop a good workable alloy to suit our needs. One thing that can really mess a fella up is to not mark the alloy ingots and lose track of the hardness. The hardness is not all that critical, but for most, the tin or antimony source makes us want to be careful and not too careless in our alloys.
The point I was trying to make was to blend several test alloys and see which ones best fit your needs and not just make one major batch, and it may or may not be a good use for any of the shooting needs. I do not think there is any "right" or "wrong" choice, just that some might be better.
The point I was trying to make was to blend several test alloys and see which ones best fit your needs and not just make one major batch, and it may or may not be a good use for any of the shooting needs. I do not think there is any "right" or "wrong" choice, just that some might be better.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Yes, you can blend alloys and see which one seems to work best. And then if you have to change lube or powder or primer you might well have to start all over again.
At one point I think there was a list here of the basic things you can do long before Bhn or alloy change came into the picture. Stuff like seating depth, neck tension and sizing were way ahead of Bhn. But who ever hits a wall because a bullet/load stops shooting as they raise fps and tries changing sizing or seating depth before jumping to Bhn? Not many I'll bet!
At one point I think there was a list here of the basic things you can do long before Bhn or alloy change came into the picture. Stuff like seating depth, neck tension and sizing were way ahead of Bhn. But who ever hits a wall because a bullet/load stops shooting as they raise fps and tries changing sizing or seating depth before jumping to Bhn? Not many I'll bet!
Got to thinking about this last eve. Kinda a task oriented person, so a method to madness(?).
1) what is the goal for your cast? Sets needs for fps/terminal results.
2) #1 sets requirements for alloy.
3) #1 and caliber sets requirements for 'perfection' of cast.
4) #1 and your gun/load determines results.
Or, you can cast a bunch from whatever you have, dump in some powder and complain.
Most of us have a 'method' that works for our goals but often don't stick to it. Need to load some ammo, pick out already cast and load them.
So, as a 'note', small bullets must be more 'perfect' than large ones, from the mold!
1) what is the goal for your cast? Sets needs for fps/terminal results.
2) #1 sets requirements for alloy.
3) #1 and caliber sets requirements for 'perfection' of cast.
4) #1 and your gun/load determines results.
Or, you can cast a bunch from whatever you have, dump in some powder and complain.
Most of us have a 'method' that works for our goals but often don't stick to it. Need to load some ammo, pick out already cast and load them.
So, as a 'note', small bullets must be more 'perfect' than large ones, from the mold!
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
Generally agree but also think that velocity and pressure are a factor in the quality of the casting and alloy choice. I shoot mostly handgun and mild rifle loads so the alloy is not all that critical. I do like to cast "perfect" bullets, but there are some small flaws that have no real affect at handgun ranges. Maybe I am of the opinion that many things are not really important, unless they are important.
Primer pocket cleaning not nearly as important than keeping lube off the base of the bullets.
Primer pocket cleaning not nearly as important than keeping lube off the base of the bullets.