Americans and the DA revolver

[Petrol & Powder]

First and foremost – I have a strong affinity for double action revolvers.

With that statement out of the way, I’d like to explore one of the possible reasons that American law enforcement clung to the DA revolver for so long.

The immediate theories all center on issues such as budgets, training, public acceptance, and reliability. But I think plain ole dogmatic resistance to change may have played the biggest role.

Around the beginning of the 20th century, most large militaries were looking towards the semi-auto pistol as their preferred sidearm. Smokeless powder and innovative designs had opened the door to this possibility. While some nations, such as the United Kingdom and Russia, stayed with the revolver, many nations at least wanted to explore the concept of the pistol. In 1911 the United States adapted a pistol for military use. It would be safe to say that by the end of 1945, the semi-auto pistol was widely accepted around the world. The revolver wasn’t archaic at that point, but the popularity of the self-loading pistol had certainly grown tremendously since its inception.

A notable holdout against this trend was U.S. Law Enforcement. Sure, there were plenty of examples of semi-auto pistols in use with federal agents, some local and state agencies, and individual officers, but the DA revolver held on strong well into the 1980’s.

In 1967 the Illinois State Police adopted the S&W Model 39. This made the Illinois State Police a front runner in the transition to pistols, but it would be decades more before this movement gathered momentum. The Connecticut State Police adopted the Beretta 92 in 1983. The LAPD allowed officers to purchase Beretta 92 pistols starting in mid-1986. They later issued the same pistol in 1989. The New York State Police didn’t make the switch to semi-auto pistols until 1988. The Virginia State Police adopted a pistol (S&W 1026) in 1990.

The New York CITY Police Department reluctantly started allowing semi-auto pistols for patrol officers in 1986. Up until 1993 there were DA revolvers on the very short list of approved guns that NYPD recruits could purchase as their duty sidearm. In 1993 the DA revolver was dropped from the list of NYPD approved duty guns for purchase. NYPD Officers that had qualified with a revolver could continue to carry them until they were completely phased out in 2018. This ended the NYPD’s official connection to the DA revolver that began under Police Commissioner Theodore Roosevelt in 1896!

There are few groups that resist change more than U.S. Law enforcement. The ones that come to mind are religious organizations, the British Navy, maybe the Kingdom of Sweden………

American Law Enforcement embraced motor vehicles, radio communications, computers, evidence collection, and many other tools. But they were slow to let go of the DA revolver. There’s no single clearly defined reason for that resistance to change but I think plain ole tradition played a role.

 

[Charles Graff]

It was common thinking back in the days that the auto-pistol could jam at a critical moment. Not saying this is true, but it was the common thinking. Yes, I know that DA revolvers can roll snake eyes at a critical moment if not properly cleaned and maintained.

Houston PD motorcycle cops carried 1911s in the 50's and 60's and maybe longer. Texas Rangers and some rural officers liked the 1911 for as long as I have memory and even a few still carried Colt SAs.

 

[david s]

I do agree it's a bit odd that the average large police department resisted the semi auto handgun for so long. But then quite a few resisted speed loaders for heaven's sake. I do wonder sometimes how much the Colt, Smith and Wesson rivalry and the wooing of police contracts had to do with it. When Ruger became the third player and came out with their Speed/Service Six-line of revolvers this shook things up a bit and S&W got busy and with their L framed guns. The change to autos seemed to occur after the mainstream media began to say the police were being out gunned in the 1980's. Being a new hand gunner in the 1970's early 80's the 357 magnum was pretty much king of the pistol cartridges, now if a cartridge doesn't fit into the Glock platform the round is pretty much forgotten. Things change sometimes slowly.

 

[dannyd]

Law Enforcement used motor vehicles, radio communications, computers, evidence collection, and many other tools way more than their side arms from 1946 to probably the 1990's when respect for Law enforcement starting changing.

A Virginia State Trooper had no problems when he asked you to step out of your car 50 years ago because everyone knew what would happen if they didn't obey his commands.

Now those guy's are armed to the teeth.

I have only owned one Semiautomatic pistol, a Ruger Mk2 22 long rifle, sold it about 6 months after I purchased it. Semiautomatics are just not for me.

I just like revolvers, practicing to use a GP100 for my first USPSA match.

 

[RicinYakima]

I became a LEO in 1970. You had six shots before reloading and expected to take out at least three bad guys.

When “national “ standardized training began, the line cop was told “you put your life on the line every day.” By 1980’s, they started believing every cop in every town was under a threat of fighting a gang every day.

They were told that they needed more firepower. They got it even if they didn’t need it. But a lot of police trainers made a career of selling their stuff.

A police officer is less likely to be injured on the job today than 40 years ago and not because of the weapon his is wearing.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I've written this before and I think it's worth repeating:

The L-frame Smith & Wesson’s (581, 586, 681 and 686) were first produced in 1980. The Ruger GP-100 was introduced about 1985. By the mid 1980’s the push to pistols was in full motion. I've always felt that it was an unfortunate coincidence of history that right about the time DA duty revolvers hit their pinnacle, the semi-auto pistol wave was about to crash over them.

There were also societal changes taking place, and that clearly had an effect that made the pistols appear to be a better choice over DA revolvers. But there had been a movement afoot for some time to adopt pistols, but it didn’t get traction until the mid-1980’s.

I also believe the increased availability of DA/SA pistols in the early 1980’s, as opposed to SA only pistols, had some influence over the mass transition to pistols. The second-generation S&W pistols like the 459 and 645 began to appear, the Beretta 92 series was developing, The SIGs and others started to hit the market. The demand created supply and the supply fed the demand.

 

[Rick H]

A police officer is less likely to be injured on the job today than 40 years ago and not because of the weapon his is wearing.

Agreed. I hired on in 1975. Increased training helped a lot. Better firearms training, tactics, procedures, made a difference as well. A huge difference for officer's survivability has been the widespread use of body armor. Lets not forget safer cars and tighter chase policies. My department injured far more officers in car crashes than were ever injured in gunfights.

 

[JWinAZ]

I too am a big fan of the DA revolver. Their day in law enforcement is over, but they are a handloader's delight. So nice to be able to keep the brass off the ground and not lost. Although, a self defense teacher years ago said to always knock the brass out onto the ground to keep from paying attention to the brass rather than the situation at hand.

 

[L Ross]

I was truly saddened to give up my duty Model 19. I'd have happily finished out my first career and my second stint as an LEO with that Model 19. Hell I'd go into harms way with my current Model 66 and a couple of speed loaders. With, a long gun close at hand.

 

[RicinYakima]

I was very confident with 6” model 10 and Colt cobra in my Tuffy Jacket.

 

[JWinAZ]

I spent summers on my grandparents ranch, right on the border. In 1974 two Customs agents were murdered by smugglers a few miles away. That summer Grandad equipped me with a S&W 1917, well used. Carried it when out working fences, woodcutting, windmilling, etc. I loaded AR cases with the Lyman ACP bullet. We kept our ears and eyes open and never had a problem.

At the end of the summer Grandad gave me my choice of the 1917 or a pristine commercial 1911. Without hesitation I asked for the 1911 even though the 1917 had served me well. Don't know what happened to the 1917, but I wish I had it too.

 

[todd]

my uncle was a police officer (who is now retired and he's the local magistrate) who had used a D/A 357 Rem mag. he took it out several times, but he has the "gift of gab" so the D/A was unused.

years ago, some of the local police officers got into shootout. the guy was messed up on angel dust (PCP) and something else (i forget). he had a pistol and he was threating the police to use it. he was on his porch and ranting on, when all a sudden he tries to shoot a police officer. well, being surround around cops, they shoot. and shoot. and shoot some more. fnally someone got a head shot to put down. the officers were using 9mm and i think it was around 110 shots and 14 or 15 shots hit the guy. my uncle said later (he wasn't involved), they shot 110 times and got only 14 or 15 rounds into him? #1 the police need training. #2 the police should be issued 45ACP pistol in DA or at least a 357 Mag revolver in DA. you only got shoot the guy once, even if he's messed up on drugs, he'll get the picture not to shoot.

 

[Rockydoc]

First and foremost – I have a strong affinity for double action revolvers.

With that statement out of the way, I’d like to explore one of the possible reasons that American law enforcement clung to the DA revolver for so long.

The immediate theories all center on issues such as budgets, training, public acceptance, and reliability. But I think plain ole dogmatic resistance to change may have played the biggest role.

That is likely the reason we still measure distance in miles, yards, feet and inches and fractions thereof. Weight in pounds and ounces and fractions thereof.
While the rest of the world has moved on the the decimal system of meters and liters and no damned fractions.

 

[Charles Graff]

The military of the world has long ago gone to pistols. The development of the pistol lead to much better and higher capacity pistols which the drug gangs and assorted evil doers embraced quickly. This lead police to feel they were "outgunned" and that is the primary cause for the shift from revolvers to pistols. There was also confiscated drug money available to local police to fund the change.

 

[Snakeoil]

I suspect that part of the love for the DA was it could be carried in a ready to fire condition without any safety concerns or brain fade concerns should the officer be required to react instinctively. Most semi-auto pistols back when they first came out were SA designs, requiring a cocked and locked condition for a first shot. And if the officer had been carrying a DA for a good portion of his career, a cocked and locked auto could very well have him pulling on the trigger before releasing the safety under stressful conditions. Another feature of DA revolvers is they all work the same. Sure, some may reload a bit differently or the cylinder rotate in a different direction. But as far a firing the gun, you shoot every one in exactly the same fashion. You simply pull the trigger. This means every officer on the force can use every other officers handgun. If some have revolvers and some have semi-autos and all the training has not taken place yet, an DA trained officer might need his dead partners semi-auto and not be able to use it, or at least use it effectively under stress.

So, I can see reluctance to move to a semi-auto that in the case of the 1911 gives you one more round if carried with the chamber empty and 2 more if cocked and locked. This could very well be the rationale behind the development of the DA semi-auto which can be carried safely and ready to fire simply by pulling the trigger, just like a DA revolver. Walther was a proponent of this design. They may have been the first DA semi-auto.

I remember when NY went to Glocks with the NYSP. Bret was probably in uniform then. Other NY departments started moving to semi-autos. NY City was the reason for the NY Trigger which increased the trigger pull to be closer to a DA revolver DA trigger pull. This came about from an officer's Glock going off accidentally in a courtroom one day. I may have the timing off, but that's what my memory is telling me. But the point of the NY trigger was for transitioning DA revolver officers to Glocks without the safety concerns.

I was never in Law Enforcement. But I was a serious action pistol shooter at the time so we all tended to stay abreast off all the latest stuff going on with pistols. This was right about the same time that the 9mm and double stacked mags became the hot two items in pistols.

 

[CZ93X62]

No argument with any of the above statements.

My shop added autoloaders in early 1987--45 ACP and 9 x 19. D/A revolvers remain authorized in 38 Special and 357 Magnum, and are widely popular as back-up and off-duty choices. After 10 years of 38 Special +P/DA revolvers only--then almost 18 years of mostly autopistols as disincentivizers--my view is that the caliber of the sidearm is a whole lot more critical than its platform design. The largest sidearms enhancements during my entire career were the additions of 45 ACP and 9mm/Win STHPs in 1987 and 40 S&W and 357 Magnum in 1994. The change to 9mm Subsonic from the STHP in 1994 was the polar opposite of 'Enhancement', and ended my relationship with the 9mm as a carry sidearm until retirement in 2005.

I could burn up a metric ton of bandwidth on the subject of the Facklerites and their incestuous relationship with USDOJ. The 9mm subsonic consciousness-raising and exhortation is a symptom/result of that relationship--rushed, scammed, and profoundly inbred. I'll shut up right now.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

That is likely the reason we still measure distance in miles, yards, feet and inches and fractions thereof. Weight in pounds and ounces and fractions thereof.
While the rest of the world has moved on the the decimal system of meters and liters and no damned fractions.

Yep- Americans are stubborn that way but at least we’re completely committed to the imperial system. The UK is about half metric and half imperial. They measure most weights and length in metric, but they still use the imperial system for most roadway measurements, including speed, distance and bridge heights. They use imperial measurements for beer (As one should!) and they still use Troy Ounces for gold and silver. Canada isn’t completely on-board with the metric system either.

There was a big push in the 1970’s to force the metric system on the U.S.A. and we resisted that with great vigor. America might be a holdout but damnit, we don’t like to be told what to do.

 

[JWinAZ]

To add to the drift: A very interesting book on the metric system is Whatever Happened to the Metric System? How America Kept Its Feet by John Bemelams Marciano. The conflict goes back to the time of the American Revolution.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Whatever Happened to the Metric System? How America Kept Its Feet

Love the title.

 

[CZ93X62]

Metric, Imperial, and the pre-Soviet Russian 'arshins'--a soldier's pace, roughly 28 inches or 71 centimeters. In Turkish it meant 'An arm length'. My mind is a storehouse of useless information at times.