Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
I ran across this in a blog from Cheapet Than Dirt, a guns and ammo vendor.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
An interesting read.
- Thread starter Rockydoc
- Start date
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
That's not a bad paper but the data is, at best, 20+ years old.
As pointed out in that paper, the data is far from complete. In fact, the data is extremely limited. This is not surprising considering the civil and criminal liability surrounding the topic. Who in thier right mind would want to share that data?
The notion that individuals fight like they train is probably one of the biggest lies ever told. Under intense stress individuals do not revert to their training (much to the chagrin of instructors that endlessly claim the opposite). The key to training isn’t teaching how to shoot, fight, fly an airplane or drive a car, etc.; the key to training is to remain in control of your mind. This is why there is no substitute for experience. It is also why training is overrated under extreme stress. It’s not the training that is key under stress, it is handling the stress itself that is key.
Captain Sullenberger (AKA “Sully”) who successfully ditched an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River in January of 2009 is a classic example. His experience was far more important than his training. His ability to remain calm, make decisions and execute those decisions was far more critical to success than his training on what to do. Experience is a hard teacher but it is also the best teacher.
Instructors love to beat their chest and proclaim how training is the solution to all problems. And while training is important to instill the “what to do” & “how to do it”, it will never replace experience. Ask yourself, do you want the highly trained dentist that just started his practice yesterday, or do you want the dentist that has 30 years of experience? Training is important but it will never be a substitute for experience.
As pointed out in that paper, the data is far from complete. In fact, the data is extremely limited. This is not surprising considering the civil and criminal liability surrounding the topic. Who in thier right mind would want to share that data?
The notion that individuals fight like they train is probably one of the biggest lies ever told. Under intense stress individuals do not revert to their training (much to the chagrin of instructors that endlessly claim the opposite). The key to training isn’t teaching how to shoot, fight, fly an airplane or drive a car, etc.; the key to training is to remain in control of your mind. This is why there is no substitute for experience. It is also why training is overrated under extreme stress. It’s not the training that is key under stress, it is handling the stress itself that is key.
Captain Sullenberger (AKA “Sully”) who successfully ditched an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River in January of 2009 is a classic example. His experience was far more important than his training. His ability to remain calm, make decisions and execute those decisions was far more critical to success than his training on what to do. Experience is a hard teacher but it is also the best teacher.
Instructors love to beat their chest and proclaim how training is the solution to all problems. And while training is important to instill the “what to do” & “how to do it”, it will never replace experience. Ask yourself, do you want the highly trained dentist that just started his practice yesterday, or do you want the dentist that has 30 years of experience? Training is important but it will never be a substitute for experience.
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Rick H
Well-Known Member
So How in the hell are you going to get "experience"? The overwhelming majority of LEO's never have to use their weapon against another. I can tell you that for me, with a year and a half on the job, when the time came I clearly remember telling myself "front sight" as I was stroking the double action trigger, as had been drilled into me and repeated with perhaps 10,000 dry fire and live fire cycles at the police academy.
Training is all you are going to get before you get to "Experience" a gunfight. 30 year cops are retired and most of them have zero experience in a gunfight. Go ahead and tout experience.......that is BS. The best we can do is train.....and examine the training when we fail. Train harder and better. All we have to improve performance is training. The only experience a guy or gal is likely to ever get is training, so make it as relevant and realistic as we can.
Training is all you are going to get before you get to "Experience" a gunfight. 30 year cops are retired and most of them have zero experience in a gunfight. Go ahead and tout experience.......that is BS. The best we can do is train.....and examine the training when we fail. Train harder and better. All we have to improve performance is training. The only experience a guy or gal is likely to ever get is training, so make it as relevant and realistic as we can.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
I opted the highly trained dentist that just started his practice, back in 1976 or thereabouts. Went to him till we relocated to Arkansas. He would do root canals, rather than send you to a specialist. I still have crowns, that he put in, back then. His wife worked with my wife. She put him though dental school. Chuck was a year older than me. He died, after we moved, from a blood disorder. Treated at the Cleveland Clinic. Kept his practice going till the very end. Was excellent with kids.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
If you read what I wrote, "And while training is important to instill the “what to do” & “how to do it”,..." you will see that I acknowledge the training is important to instill the "nuts & bolts" of WHAT to do and HOW to do it.
I don't think training is worthless, it is all we have. However, it is, in my opinion, way overplayed.
Going back to the Sully example, He was trained on how to ditch an Airbus A320 just like every other pilot. Knowing what to do is important but having a clear mind when the time comes is far more critical at that time.
I don't think training is worthless, it is all we have. However, it is, in my opinion, way overplayed.
Going back to the Sully example, He was trained on how to ditch an Airbus A320 just like every other pilot. Knowing what to do is important but having a clear mind when the time comes is far more critical at that time.
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
I identify with that dentist, just change the date to 1964. I did an internship in a Navy hospital. Few dentists do internships. The only thing I referred out was orthodontics. I would do a root canal for the price of an extraction if that was all the patient could afford, to keep them from losing the tooth.
If Implantology had been a speciality I would have been that. I did the surgery as well as the prosthetics. I received the training first, then years of experience.
I didn’t mean to open a can of worms here, but my opinion is that you have to have the training before you can get the experience, but experience is invaluable.
RBHarter
West Central AR
The best Dr I ever had did his everything from 10 days out of med school in Vietnam from 68-72' . Though I never had to see him in ER when it was serious business he was ice cold 20 something at heart , Scotch from a 30 yr old bottle in a cold glass neat .....
I met the pilot that landed the 757 convertible in Hawaii short a flight attendant . He said the navigator/engineer and the copilot split the emergency procedure book while he was dialing up 7777 , resetting power , and getting the plane back straight and level . He set up a 3 minute turn and a decent path to 10,000 ft . Both nav and the right seat announced that there weren't any procedures for 25' of the roof missing . He said at that point the only choice he had was to line up straight in for Honolulu and hope the spars and nose gear , if the gear would come down , held for 45 seconds longer than it took to get it on the ground , and fly the plane . In the end all he really had was to fly the plane . He flew it in dead stick for a soft , short field , nose up , all the low speed lift , and just under the last light , full reverse on wheel contact .
You train for what you can , know it will be stacked against you and worse than your worst nightmare , and make it up when it goes south .
In the end you'll fight or flee . The most dangerous thing you can face or be is ice cold and clear headed while everything is disintegrating around you . Training keeps process intact , but once in a while you have to throw away the book and just fly the plane .
I met the pilot that landed the 757 convertible in Hawaii short a flight attendant . He said the navigator/engineer and the copilot split the emergency procedure book while he was dialing up 7777 , resetting power , and getting the plane back straight and level . He set up a 3 minute turn and a decent path to 10,000 ft . Both nav and the right seat announced that there weren't any procedures for 25' of the roof missing . He said at that point the only choice he had was to line up straight in for Honolulu and hope the spars and nose gear , if the gear would come down , held for 45 seconds longer than it took to get it on the ground , and fly the plane . In the end all he really had was to fly the plane . He flew it in dead stick for a soft , short field , nose up , all the low speed lift , and just under the last light , full reverse on wheel contact .
You train for what you can , know it will be stacked against you and worse than your worst nightmare , and make it up when it goes south .
In the end you'll fight or flee . The most dangerous thing you can face or be is ice cold and clear headed while everything is disintegrating around you . Training keeps process intact , but once in a while you have to throw away the book and just fly the plane .
Ian
Notorious member
"Sully" had zero experience ditching a dead-stick jet in a river, but he had a lot of experience landing and a lot of simulator time as part of continuing training for "above and beyond the norm" failure modes. Keeping calm is a result of training and "moxy"; nervous, punchy types wash out of passenger jet school and do things like auger in perfectly good 767s in Houston marshes.
I've been in a sudden, unexpected death match with a handgun and I can tell you two things: one, you WILL NOT rise to the occasion, but you WILL default to your current level of training, hope it is good training and that it is very current. Two, you never really know for sure if you're going to choke and faint or steel yourself and make good reactions and decisions to survive and minimize collateral damage until you're actually faced with a real situation. Training is how you win or find out early, before it's too late, that you'd make a better dentist than policeman. Experience comes AFTER training.
I've been in a sudden, unexpected death match with a handgun and I can tell you two things: one, you WILL NOT rise to the occasion, but you WILL default to your current level of training, hope it is good training and that it is very current. Two, you never really know for sure if you're going to choke and faint or steel yourself and make good reactions and decisions to survive and minimize collateral damage until you're actually faced with a real situation. Training is how you win or find out early, before it's too late, that you'd make a better dentist than policeman. Experience comes AFTER training.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
That paper, written almost 20 years ago, offers an academic approach to several issues and addresses several common misconceptions. The author very honestly explains that he is drawing from extremely limited data. I give him high marks for his openness concerning the flaws in the statistics he puts forth. I also like the fact that he explains the statistics can be grossly skewed due to factors such as “bunch shooting” and other factors. However, in the end, he is a trainer and he advocates for…………wait for it…….more training. (shocking). Kind of like a car salesman advocating that what you really need is a new car.
There is no doubt that training is important, but at some point, more training doesn’t necessarily equate to better results. There are diminishing returns from excessive training. In high stress environments there is a clear plateau to the usefulness of training. Some training is essential, but training will only get you so far. There is a limit to the usefulness of training and simulations. The author even acknowledges this limit on page 15: “While it is clear is that police firearms training must continue to pursue more job-related “context,” it is not clear to what extent training will mitigate some of the problems observed in this research.”
Going back to the Sully example, Sullenberger learned to fly at 16 years of age. He went to the Air Force Academy (class of 73) and became a glider student and later a glider instructor. He was an F4 Phantom II pilot. He became a commercial pilot in 1980 and had 29 years of commercial experience in 2009. While, based on training, he possessed the skills and knowledge on how to ditch an A320; it wasn’t training that saved the day. All of the training in the world is useless if you do not possess the ability to utilize those skills.
I think the author’s own history speaks for itself:
“Thomas J. Aveni is a staff member of the Police Policy Studies Council (www.theppsc.org). He has trained over 12,000 law enforcement and military personnel while serving as a training coordinator at Smith & Wesson Academy from 1990-2001. He has a Masters degree in Forensic Psychology, and has served as a police officer in three states (NJ, UT, NH), over three decades. His seminars, “Deadly Misconceptions,” and “Police Marksmanship Under Fire” are offered internationally.”
Ultimately, he is a trainer advocating for yet more training and is happy to sell you that training.
There is no doubt that training is important, but at some point, more training doesn’t necessarily equate to better results. There are diminishing returns from excessive training. In high stress environments there is a clear plateau to the usefulness of training. Some training is essential, but training will only get you so far. There is a limit to the usefulness of training and simulations. The author even acknowledges this limit on page 15: “While it is clear is that police firearms training must continue to pursue more job-related “context,” it is not clear to what extent training will mitigate some of the problems observed in this research.”
Going back to the Sully example, Sullenberger learned to fly at 16 years of age. He went to the Air Force Academy (class of 73) and became a glider student and later a glider instructor. He was an F4 Phantom II pilot. He became a commercial pilot in 1980 and had 29 years of commercial experience in 2009. While, based on training, he possessed the skills and knowledge on how to ditch an A320; it wasn’t training that saved the day. All of the training in the world is useless if you do not possess the ability to utilize those skills.
I think the author’s own history speaks for itself:
“Thomas J. Aveni is a staff member of the Police Policy Studies Council (www.theppsc.org). He has trained over 12,000 law enforcement and military personnel while serving as a training coordinator at Smith & Wesson Academy from 1990-2001. He has a Masters degree in Forensic Psychology, and has served as a police officer in three states (NJ, UT, NH), over three decades. His seminars, “Deadly Misconceptions,” and “Police Marksmanship Under Fire” are offered internationally.”
Ultimately, he is a trainer advocating for yet more training and is happy to sell you that training.
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
I think that "convertible" in Hawaii was 737.
smokeywolf
Well-Known Member
I've been in several life or death situations. I'm still here and nobody died, so I guess I did it right. One thing I can add; correction, emphasize, Ian mentions it in #10. Keep your head. Was told in dive school, "panic is an unreasoning fear". In the end, panic is often what kills people; not so much the actual immediate threat to which they need to respond.
Allen, you've come closer than I have. Would love to hear your thoughts. Maybe in a PM.
Allen, you've come closer than I have. Would love to hear your thoughts. Maybe in a PM.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I knew it was one of the 7?7s and not 0,4,or 6 .......
A wise man once said experience is what you get about 10 seconds after you needed it .
I can neither confirm nor deny the shooting solution . I can tell you that it is a big deal in the dark with a 2" hose in your hand as the lead in a 3 man team in a burning building when the 2nd low tank whistle pops and your boot gets snagged in something that won't slip off . Not certain life and death when it took 20 minutes out of the tank to get worked in to that point 5 to get back out just doesn't seem like a very long time .......I didn't even get paid to be there . I can show you a pretty neat trick with a 3/4 capacity filled propane tank , a housewife mistake that done deliberately will fix a rodent problem in a closed space ,and a neat trick with pool supplies and automotive fluids . Hazmat showed me how to ........ Yeah let's call it paper cartridge tech and leave it there .
A wise man once said experience is what you get about 10 seconds after you needed it .
I can neither confirm nor deny the shooting solution . I can tell you that it is a big deal in the dark with a 2" hose in your hand as the lead in a 3 man team in a burning building when the 2nd low tank whistle pops and your boot gets snagged in something that won't slip off . Not certain life and death when it took 20 minutes out of the tank to get worked in to that point 5 to get back out just doesn't seem like a very long time .......I didn't even get paid to be there . I can show you a pretty neat trick with a 3/4 capacity filled propane tank , a housewife mistake that done deliberately will fix a rodent problem in a closed space ,and a neat trick with pool supplies and automotive fluids . Hazmat showed me how to ........ Yeah let's call it paper cartridge tech and leave it there .
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Been there and done that! RBH.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I don't know anything about airplanes or dentistry, but I do know about being in a position where training is all that keeps you going. There is no such thing as "realistic training" IMO. All the games in the world are pure BS in that regard because you KNOW the threat is coming. Clearing jams and hip shooting (we used to teach that) and sight alignment training is wonderful. What you can't train for is the complete surprise. You can't train for the BG that doesn't seem like a bad guy, and treating everyone like a BG gets you crap from on high, so that doesn't work either. It's a fact. Our Chief Firearms Instructor, a Vietnam Marine who competed several times at Camp Perry and taught shooting for years and years, walked onto an armed BG at something like 10 feet. Ol' Trooper "Draw-Bang!" drew and shot the flashlight in the BG's off hand. Fortunately the BG gave up right there, but this guy had more training than anyone else in Troop, plus patrol time in Vietnam,and his target walked off without a scratch.
I guess my thought is that it's all interesting reading, but I don't know how it relates at the individual level. The closest I came I still recall vividly and I can see the hammer coming back in my peripheral vision. If I had continued and it had dropped, I'd likely be in prison today because the guy was totally unarmed, as was his wife who I was also ready to shoot. Their actions were text book from TRAINING WE HAD DONE! Everything screamed "SHOOT!!!". I can't tell you how happy I am I hesitated! So did I disobey my training or did I do what training said which was to shoot when the BG's weapon is presented? There were 5 or 6 other times hings got hairy, but I lucked out then too. Pretty glad it worked out for me.
The article brings out a lot of interesting stuff. IMO the most interesting is the difference between a revolver and auto pistol. "Spray and pray" is a real thing. I've seen that first hand in front of me. I think a revolver has a lot of good points in it's favor, and a few bad. The other interesting thing is that I've helped compile stats that go into reports like the ones used here. There is only so much info that is the same between agencies, much less states. I wonder how much "salt" needs to be taken with this now that I reflect on that!
I guess my thought is that it's all interesting reading, but I don't know how it relates at the individual level. The closest I came I still recall vividly and I can see the hammer coming back in my peripheral vision. If I had continued and it had dropped, I'd likely be in prison today because the guy was totally unarmed, as was his wife who I was also ready to shoot. Their actions were text book from TRAINING WE HAD DONE! Everything screamed "SHOOT!!!". I can't tell you how happy I am I hesitated! So did I disobey my training or did I do what training said which was to shoot when the BG's weapon is presented? There were 5 or 6 other times hings got hairy, but I lucked out then too. Pretty glad it worked out for me.
The article brings out a lot of interesting stuff. IMO the most interesting is the difference between a revolver and auto pistol. "Spray and pray" is a real thing. I've seen that first hand in front of me. I think a revolver has a lot of good points in it's favor, and a few bad. The other interesting thing is that I've helped compile stats that go into reports like the ones used here. There is only so much info that is the same between agencies, much less states. I wonder how much "salt" needs to be taken with this now that I reflect on that!
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L Ross
Well-Known Member
Adrenaline can be the most wonderful chemical in the universe or the worst. I look back at the best men I worked with in street brawls or the rare shooting incident. Those that are blessed to have adrenaline cause "time to slow down", OMG, what a sensation. Training can certainly augment that and allow mechanical techniques to go on auto pilot. Going to cover, malfunction drills, front sight, trigger squeeze, bladed fighting stance all kinds of good things that once burned into your pshyco motor skill set enhance your survivability. But that wonderful rare ability to keep your head, not freeze up, or over react. I tried to instill that when I was training officers and in my civilian personal safety classes. I used to hand out a copy of "If" by Kipling.
Surviving motor vehicle incidents in four wheels or on two. A combination of training, skill, practice, experience, repetition, and confidence. Situations that were terrifying when you were new and inexperienced become merely annoying when you have the experience.
Bret brings up a great point, those times when you could have shot, fully justified, in policy, probably publically accepted, but decided in a split instant not to fire. Having the extra fractions of a second and the super human intensity that adrenaline provides can save you from a life time of regret and second guessing.
Now having to no longer respond with a yessir yessir three bags full to calls of the unknown, my newest training involves avoiding danger. My wife just loves watching me watching everyone around me within a threat radius. I try to do this discretely with the ordinary people we mostly encounter. The less appealing types get more scrutiny without threatening them, and I/we simply avoid sketchy encounters. I'm painfully aware that I am older, slower, weaker, and look more like prey than predator. I've decided to take advantage of that by not taking chances, but if the situation deteriorates hopefully the element of surprise will work in my favor. That, a pocket .38 and a beaver tail sap can shave a few years off the disadvantage if all else fails.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
" I try to do this discretely with the ordinary people we mostly encounter. The less appealing types get more scrutiny without threatening them, and I/we simply avoid sketchy encounters. I'm painfully aware that I am older, slower, weaker, and look more like prey than predator. I've decided to take advantage of that by not taking chances, but if the situation deteriorates hopefully the element of surprise will work in my favor. That, a pocket .38 and a beaver tail sap can shave a few years off the disadvantage if all else fails."
Words of wisdom here!
Words of wisdom here!