Bad Powder.

[dale2242]

I recently read an article in one of the gun rags about one of the authors brother having a fire due to spontaneous combustion of a can of powder.
Since he recommended checking your powder to see if it had started to deteriorate, I gave all of my powder cans/bottles a sniff.
This included 41-1pound cans, 9-8 pound cans , a 12 pound can and a 50 pound can.
Most all of these cans had been opened and some of the powder had been used.
The containers had from nearly new to very old powder in them.
They all passed the sniff test.
Maybe a good heads up. It didn't take that long.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I recently read an article in one of the gun rags about one of the authors brother having a fire due to spontaneous combustion of a can of powder

I’m a bit skeptical about spontaneous combustion of smokeless powder, even old powder. I'm even more doubtful if the source is a second hand account in a "gun rag" (AKA a sales brochure disguised as firearms literature)

Just because someone (or perhaps their brother so that they can distance themselves from the source) claims they were the victim of spontaneous combustion doesn’t make that true. I suspect there was some other ignition factor involved that either the author was unaware of, or didn’t wish to disclose.

 

[JonB]

I think it was glassparman that had a garage fire a couple years ago and gunpowder was suspected(in combo with electrical?). After reading his post, I did same thing Dale did. I found an older metal can, partial full of powder, bottom of can was severely rusted, so as I picked it up, the bottom started to let loose a tiny bit and powder flowed out a little bit. I disposed of that can and it's contents, in the gravel alley...it's surprising how much smoke floated into the neighbors yard, LOL. That same day, I also disposed of a one gallon sized jug of misc mixed gunpowder, mostly pulled from Mil surp ammo, but some other stuff too. I'm not sure why I was saving it, so I decided it was better to NOT have unknown powder in the house.

 

[RBHarter]

The depot i worked on had an auto ignition event in a bunker of naval howie prop charges .
100,000 lbs of bagged and canned pellets about 3/4 of an inch long and 3/16 dia , w/9 perforation length wise . Kind of a scaled up 10x kernel of 4831 . WWIi surplus with questionable storage it's first 5 yr. Circa 98' .

 

[fiver]

Accurate had a recall on some powders a couple of years back for this problem.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

While there’s no question that smokeless powder in all its forms is highly flammable, I get skeptical when I hear words like “spontaneous” and “auto ignition”.

Once something like that is ignited, the resulting fire/explosion will be impressive. But something still must ignite it. If there’s a fire and the source of the fire is unknown – that doesn’t mean the only remaining explanation is spontaneous ignition. It means the source of the fire wasn’t determined. The fact that during the last 120+ years, enormous amounts of smokeless powder have been stored all over the world, often for decades at a time, tells me that the stuff doesn’t typically just ignite all on its own.

After a fire you can say you looked for the source of ignition and couldn’t find the source but that doesn’t eliminate the possibility that you just couldn’t find the source of ignition. The lack of evidence of the source of a fire doesn’t equate to the absolute fact that “spontaneous ignition” was the sole remaining explanation for a fire.

There’s an old joke amongst electricians that when there is a structure fire and the source can’t be determined, it will be blamed on “electrical problems”. I know arson investigators and they will tell you that if they can’t determine the source of a fire, that doesn’t mean it has to be electrical. It just means they couldn’t determine the source of the fire.

 

[glassparman]

Yep, that was me Dale. I also contributed to the problem by mixing a bunch of old surplus powders that smelled bad. I was pulling down a bunch of old surplus from various countries. I had full intentions of getting rid of this big keg but didn't do it in time I guess. The keg was about a foot away from the server rack in my shop with the UPS. I'm guessing the fumes were set off by a spark when we had a brown out and a relay in the UPS kicked. But I have also read how this stuff can spontaneously combust as well.

So now if I pull down old ammo, I get rid of the powder straight away.

I have also read that as long as the powder is in its original container and has not been contaminated, it should last indefinitely.

I do confess that I check all my canisters from time to time. Just being extra cautious now because I don't want to rebuild another shop.

Mike

 

[popper]

Gee, guess all those bombs in Nam that had nitro leaking out were really OK. I did see a vid of a guy that talked about big gun powder left from wars, said it didn't normally go bad but burn rate changes as the coatings degraded. They had to re-formulate the powder to use it.

 

[Mitty38]

I've had 50 ish year old can of Red Dot that I had got at an estate sale. Had crystals on top and smelled like almonds and rotten eggs.
I carefully carried it out to the yard laid it in the grass then poured acetone in it. Left it sit basically till the rain washed it clean.
Kinda scary thought, I had that thing bouncing around in a box in the bed of the truck, for 25 miles on the way home.

 

[RBHarter]

Locked bunker , reported as having hot cans on Thursday, giant sparkler / rocket motor Friday night.

 

[462]

Gee, guess all those bombs in Nam that had nitro leaking out were really OK.

Never saw nor loaded any leaky dumb iron bombs, but most napalm canisters I loaded were leakers.

 

[Tomme boy]

It could happen. Ever seen a bale a straw catch fire. They can catch fire all by their selves. Look it up it is possible. I have seen a couple of very old barns burned to the ground from this.

 

[fiver]

yep, hay will do it too, especially if it's been baled wet then the mold gets going and heat starts building up.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

A bale of hay is not the same thing as a can of smokeless powder.

Heat generated from the decomposition of the material coupled with sunlight will eventually reach a point where the material can burn.

Smokeless powder is very different.

 

[RicinYakima]

Maybe I can shed some light on this.

Double base powders, nitro cellulose and nitroglycerin, are stable for at least 100 years. The original batch of Bullseye is stored under water and a sample tested every 25 years. Good to go for our life times.

Single based powders are a difference animal. Wood fibers, linters, are soaked in nitric acid for several weeks. When rinsed, they are ready to burn (gun cotton), much too fast for gun powder. They are then processed to shape added material (Vaseline to make cordite) to control flame spread and burning rate. They will decompose very easily and give off flammable vapors. DuPont produced IMR 4320 from the late 1960's was noted for decomposing in just a couple of years in the one pound can. IMR continued to sell this stuff into the 1990's, never wasting a pound of this crap.

So, we have a flammable material that is off gassing flammable vapors inside a sealed can and the pressure is rising. The bigger the container, the higher the risk of heat of decomposition and rising pressure making it ignite. Second, as the vapors leak out of the container, they only have to be within their flammable range for any spark to ignite. Tripping relay, automatic fan turning on, heater starting or any electric switch. Another source is that if the nitric acid is not entirely washed off, it will combine with an paper, wood or organic material. I have been on multiple semi-trailer fires where nitric acid leaked onto the wood floor and started fires while driving down the interstate.

RB's NV depot fire is a classic of unknown conditions stored single based powder stored for 50 plus years in a bunker so heat could not escape. Same thing happened at the Umatilla Army Depot in Hermiston, OR.

Leaking nitroglycerin is not a common problem anymore, as the last of that type was used in WW2. Basically, it is like dynamite, nitroglycerin absorbed into diatomaceous earth. TNT is cheaper to make, weights less and is safer to handle. By 1968, the US Army had used up all of the WW2 dynamite and TNT and were using C4 for its engineering work.

HTH's

 

[oscarflytyer]

Accurate had a recall on some powders a couple of years back for this problem.

which Accurate powders, if you recall? I have a couple/never saw a recall that I can recall...

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it would be safe to say that even single base powders do not spontaneously combust. Under some conditions they may off gas. And under some very specific conditions, flammable gas may be ignited by some outside source (electrical equipment spark, standing pilot light, etc.)

I would be very reluctant to give the anti-gun crowd the opportunity to regulate more of the firearms/reloading field by saying smokeless powder just spontaneously ignites. If smokeless powder was in fact that incredibly dangerous, no homeowner would be permitted to store it in their homes. No gun store would be allowed to maintain smokeless powder in stock. It would be prohibited from transportation terminals and vehicles. The regulations surrounding the commercial storage and transportation of smokeless powder are already onerous; let us not feed into the gun-banners dreams by giving them more areas to control.

I suspect many of us store gasoline, propane, acetylene, kerosene, diesel, and other flammable products around our homes. We exercise care with these products because we respect the potential dangers involved. Even a common flooded cell battery can release hydrogen gas and something as common as sawdust can be hazardous in the right conditions. Smokeless powder should be stored safely but I’m not going to give the gun control folks the gift of saying smokeless powder can ignite all by itself.

 

[Winelover]

I had two of the powder lots that Accurate recalled. One was 4064 and IIRC, the other was 2015. AA-4350 was another that was recalled. I had an 8# jug but not the recalled lot number. They reimbursed me for the powder.

I store some my powder in a upright freezer in my basement shop. Mostly one pound jugs that I'm continuously using. Rest is stored underground, in a detached garage. When I had the garage built, I sunk a plastic 55 gallon barrel, below floor grade.



Few years ago, I opened the freezer and an acrid smell was apparent. Inside walls of that freezer turned yellowish. Containers with metal lids were showing signs of rust. I did a smell test on all containers and dumped those that were suspect. Most were powders that I haven't used in years that were not cast friendly. Better to be safe than sorry!

 

[Rick H]

I had a can of H4198 go bad after no more than 2 years. The powder changed color and took on an acrid odor. I tossed it. I don't know if it was dangerous or not. I didn't want to find out. Just expensive fertilizer!

 

[Mitty38]

Ohio is a major shot gun state.
I have acquired a lot of "used" Red, Blue, And Green Dot, plus Black powder, over the years. At estate sales, in with other stuff I had bought. Who knows how it was stored. My montra has always been, when in doubt, toss it out.
If I have to make a quick guestimate. I have tossed probably 200 lbs of the stuff. And have kept probably 40.
My yard and flower beds grow like mad.