Badly Bubbaed Grail Mold
- Thread starter KeithB
- Start date
A few years ago(5?) i we were at club match and I mentioned that I was looking for a 4 cav mould for 38sp. another member walked to his pickup & brought back a 358495 which he said had been sliding around in the bed since he last visited FL ,over 3 years ago. Not abused ,just really neglected. I worked on it off and on for about 6 weeks or so, casts very well.
richhodg66
Well-Known Member
Never conducted a test, but I can't see how a flat nose could pentrate deeper than a round nose all else being equal. I believe they do transfer energy more effectively. I think he said it pretty clearly that because he doesn't plan to hunt with these. He's not concerned about terminal performance.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Amazing what people will do to things under the guise of "fixing" them.
As a general rule, I don't loan out things that I cherish or that can easily be damaged. But, if I do, it comes with 1 clear instruction. "If you damage it, DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT! Give it back to me in the damaged condition and I'll deal with it myself.".
As a general rule, I don't loan out things that I cherish or that can easily be damaged. But, if I do, it comes with 1 clear instruction. "If you damage it, DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT! Give it back to me in the damaged condition and I'll deal with it myself.".
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KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
Here are some reasons why I like RN handgun bullets.
1. They cast easy. Unlike some molds with lots of sharp corners and edges most RN designs have a less complicated surface geometry. Look at a 452374 for example. No cut shoulders or corners/edges beside the base. Even modifications of this design that have a distinct shoulder where the ogive intersects the cylindrical portion the shoulder is much smaller than you find in a SWC such as a 452460. I can get good fill out with lower quality alloys over a broader range of casting conditions.
2. The loaded rounds chamber easier in both revolvers and semi autos. Nothing drops into a revolver cylinder easier than a round nose cartridge, especially when a proper crimp is applied. And if you can't get a cartridge with a proper round nose bullet to feed and chamber in a semi auto that gun or your reloading techniques need some work. You may also get better bullet shapes to feed in a semi but if RNs won't that is a gun that would go down the road.
3. I have several fixed sight .38s and .44s that were factory sighted using 158 gr/246gr round nose bullets. Duplicating the bullet weight isn't always enough, sometime you have to duplicate the style of the bullet also to get 'em to shoot to the sights.
4. My play guns as a child all had round nose bullets, as did the cartridges the cowboys on TV and the movies shoved into their sixguns. And of course the police in both real life and on the silver screen all carried revolvers with round nose cartridges. A certain nostalgic romance as it were of an earlier time.
5. Not relevant in the handgun world but look at the cartridges that African guides and dangerous game hunters use to kill the biggest of beasts. They all made their reps for deep penetration using - you guessed it - round nose solids.
Are there better bullet designs for handguns? Yep. But if it doesn't involve meat or hair or keeping goblins away then a RN will do the job. And even in the case of goblins its hard to argue that a 230-240gr RN out of a .44 or .45 isn't adequate.
1. They cast easy. Unlike some molds with lots of sharp corners and edges most RN designs have a less complicated surface geometry. Look at a 452374 for example. No cut shoulders or corners/edges beside the base. Even modifications of this design that have a distinct shoulder where the ogive intersects the cylindrical portion the shoulder is much smaller than you find in a SWC such as a 452460. I can get good fill out with lower quality alloys over a broader range of casting conditions.
2. The loaded rounds chamber easier in both revolvers and semi autos. Nothing drops into a revolver cylinder easier than a round nose cartridge, especially when a proper crimp is applied. And if you can't get a cartridge with a proper round nose bullet to feed and chamber in a semi auto that gun or your reloading techniques need some work. You may also get better bullet shapes to feed in a semi but if RNs won't that is a gun that would go down the road.
3. I have several fixed sight .38s and .44s that were factory sighted using 158 gr/246gr round nose bullets. Duplicating the bullet weight isn't always enough, sometime you have to duplicate the style of the bullet also to get 'em to shoot to the sights.
4. My play guns as a child all had round nose bullets, as did the cartridges the cowboys on TV and the movies shoved into their sixguns. And of course the police in both real life and on the silver screen all carried revolvers with round nose cartridges. A certain nostalgic romance as it were of an earlier time.
5. Not relevant in the handgun world but look at the cartridges that African guides and dangerous game hunters use to kill the biggest of beasts. They all made their reps for deep penetration using - you guessed it - round nose solids.
Are there better bullet designs for handguns? Yep. But if it doesn't involve meat or hair or keeping goblins away then a RN will do the job. And even in the case of goblins its hard to argue that a 230-240gr RN out of a .44 or .45 isn't adequate.
Research has now proven that RN is not as effective as a well designed FN
Deeper penetration is not that great when a bullet veers into a non lethal area
External ballistics is a fascinating subject and more folks than ever are adding to the knowledge base
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
IIRC I think Ross Seyfried wrote that the round-nose solid bullets were preferred because of their ability to penetrate straight through to reach vital organs on the large and rowdy African critters. Spitzers in African experience tended to skew off in unpredictable wound tracks in media. Just repeating what I read.
I can't recall the source, but I read or heard that RN shoulderless bullet designs tend to self-center in revolver forcing cones where range alignment might not be so perfect. That kinda stands to reason for me, but it seems like a round flatnose would have those same characteristics and would have a bit more effect on the animated target than the RN.
I have yet to see the condition of anything or anyone that was improved by a bullet strike.
I can't recall the source, but I read or heard that RN shoulderless bullet designs tend to self-center in revolver forcing cones where range alignment might not be so perfect. That kinda stands to reason for me, but it seems like a round flatnose would have those same characteristics and would have a bit more effect on the animated target than the RN.
I have yet to see the condition of anything or anyone that was improved by a bullet strike.
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Yeah
Spitzers are poor for straight line penetration
I am not sure if Seyfreid had access to FN solids when he was testing
I would like to read his opinion on modern solids of today
All my interest is in rifles
In the Komunist state of Kanada, handgun ownership is pretty much doomed
fiver
Well-Known Member
not a compromise really,, it's more like the proper answer to every question about bullet design.
imashooter2
Member
Member @Slughammer acquired a 311440 with a similarly damaged nose. He made a contoured punch and tapped the damage back. Perhaps he will see this and share more detail
RBHarter
West Central AR
The RN FMJ was preferred for penetration. See RM Bell 7×57 elephant culls .
Modern solids are far behind the 1903 surplus 175 FMJ Bell used having brass bodies with tungsten WC in the base to get a 375 H&H up to a 425 bullet with a BT and hydro/aerodynamic stabilizing designs. Nose shapes now encourage straight lines also being almost a round shoulder and almost a flat point.
I read once sort of a Cliff notes version of an involved study of pistol terminal results. The end result was that all else being equal a WC was the best tissue disruptor.
In rifles we get into a whole involved discussion that diverges from poking a hole in it to separation of shock waves from wake lines ....... Someplace within the window between upper transonic and mach 1.6 the science shifts from tissue disruption to dismantling. Which is really a discussion about the violence and degree of disruption.
I figure if a "Keith" SWC at 250-280 gr is great in any 45 case from 1.110 to 1.8 over 900fps is just the answer to every problem with teeth or claws it should be spectacular.004 larger and 150 gr heavier in any of the 45 cal rifles ....... Yet we don't see LWN or SWC in rifle weights intended for rifle speeds .
Modern solids are far behind the 1903 surplus 175 FMJ Bell used having brass bodies with tungsten WC in the base to get a 375 H&H up to a 425 bullet with a BT and hydro/aerodynamic stabilizing designs. Nose shapes now encourage straight lines also being almost a round shoulder and almost a flat point.
I read once sort of a Cliff notes version of an involved study of pistol terminal results. The end result was that all else being equal a WC was the best tissue disruptor.
In rifles we get into a whole involved discussion that diverges from poking a hole in it to separation of shock waves from wake lines ....... Someplace within the window between upper transonic and mach 1.6 the science shifts from tissue disruption to dismantling. Which is really a discussion about the violence and degree of disruption.
I figure if a "Keith" SWC at 250-280 gr is great in any 45 case from 1.110 to 1.8 over 900fps is just the answer to every problem with teeth or claws it should be spectacular.004 larger and 150 gr heavier in any of the 45 cal rifles ....... Yet we don't see LWN or SWC in rifle weights intended for rifle speeds .
Slughammer
Member
I have a 311440 that I acquired. Instead of those costly mold handles, the previous owner welded the blocks to slip joint pliers. The nose of the bullet was already cut close to the alignment hole and the sloppy pliers allowed the pin to smash it quite a bit. I made a punch with a radiused nose and also cut a relief on the opposite side of the punch so I could approach from as low of an angle as possible. I supported the alignment hole with a drill shank. I was very pleased with how it came out and how well the mold cast again. 
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Missionary
Well-Known Member
Hey Keith,
We shoot a 401 SLR Winchester. If you get unhappy with the "under size" issue let me know....
I will not be surprised if these drop in the .405 area.
We shoot a 401 SLR Winchester. If you get unhappy with the "under size" issue let me know....
I will not be surprised if these drop in the .405 area.
Thumbcocker
Active Member
Bubba doesn't own a file. Dremal tool.